[CS:GO] Rails

[Deh0lise]

Minor update.

GAMEPLAY
-Made entering bombsite B easier for Ts. Wood planks and vents provide more cover for common angles. http://i.imgur.com/31OeTSr.jpg
-Fixed a displacement that caused blocks in dark tunnels.
-Adjusted clips
-Fixed spawn spots to prevent stack cases when the 32 spawn points are being used.

VISUAL
-Made CT spawn walls thicker.
-Changed specular color of ceiling texture in bottom B route.
-Moved a flying bush in the Ts door corner of bombsite B

[Budfudlucker]

Nice adjustments

[Klems]

I've also removed the stars from the 2d skybox, made it less lowres and placed different planes of stars to give it more depth.

 

But why? This has to be one of the weirdest decision I have ever seen regarding skydome. You know stars are BY FAR the furthest objects in any scene, right?

I made a skydome with stars once, but it was to give an impression of rotation to the entire map. The parallax effect is even weirder when you noclip through the map.

You should made the clouds as a skydome, not the stars. Right now it looks like the entire map is surrounded by fireflies.

 

Maybe you should block the visibility under the tank train in B? I think the whole train won't be used because of that.

Some planks are a bit too thick, especially in the area from T spawn to A.

 

Anyway, it's a really great map, one of my favorite in the workshop. I'd love to try it in a 5v5.

[Deh0lise]

 

I've also removed the stars from the 2d skybox, made it less lowres and placed different planes of stars to give it more depth.

 

But why? This has to be one of the weirdest decision I have ever seen regarding skydome. You know stars are BY FAR the furthest objects in any scene, right?

I made a skydome with stars once, but it was to give an impression of rotation to the entire map. The parallax effect is even weirder when you noclip through the map.

You should made the clouds as a skydome, not the stars. Right now it looks like the entire map is surrounded by fireflies.

 

Maybe you should block the visibility under the tank train in B? I think the whole train won't be used because of that.

Some planks are a bit too thick, especially in the area from T spawn to A.

 

Anyway, it's a really great map, one of my favorite in the workshop. I'd love to try it in a 5v5.

 

-Regarding the sky:

 

That's something I may improve in the future, but I'll tell you how it went and why I'm letting as it is by now. The fist time I did the skybox with some textures that were too low res (I wanted a fast mood, was in a hurry as I set a close release date), the stars resembled more frozen snow flakes than stars, despie for most playes was ok as the mood was well set, in every single screenshot I kept seeing those blurry stars.

 

After that I tried smoothing the sky and adding the stars on it, but because of the resolution stretching occured (despite being better than before) so I wasn't getting the expected result. The photos I was using to make the sky weren't of enough quality and I had (and still have) banding issues, so recreating it from 0 didn't suit me at all and I didn't find any free photo with the shapes I wanted nor had an appropiate brush (nor wanted to spend more time doing one, at that point I was satisfied with an ok but better result).

 

After a while doing some different stuff (no stars by then), and as I  had no modelling program at the time (thought about skydome with rotating clouds that could hide some background stars), and I wanted to achieve a starred sky I tried a different approach, brush planes. The first time was more a time constrain, this time an experiment (the plane and changing colors). Players don't usually pay much attention to details, the sky is the last thing you look at in CS (and never when runing), and screenshots would be fine. In my mind the result was going to be better by then, I thought i could just play with sizes and distances with small textures.

 

I placed the stars higher after some tests, reduced their size to decrease the wtf feeling, and after noticing how horrible looked with $nofog, removed that command and played with the fog to make them less noticeable. With the fog I could eliminate the ones in the front, keeping those above. The small planes contain a different set of stars to make the tiling not noticeable, though I also wanted to change their size by placing them in different heights though it didn't work as inteded (I could increase separation dramatically for that purpose, though I wasn't into it). The colors was another test I was doing, my original idea was to set few of those planes with the dynamic texture and make them blinck periodically, just to make players notice the sky, though aAt that moment I was just sick of spending tons of hours with the experiment, and if I recall it right, there was an operation selection by then, so I tweaked it a bit to make it feel fine and shipped it as it is.

 

In my experience most players don't see many details, the stars floating and changing color seem not to shock them at all, some have not even noticed that, and the mood is mantained among the versions, which was my main concern.

 

I may tweak it in the future as I'm with max now (gotta fix banding tough), but by now I want to fix other stuff first (I'm on), the sort of stuff which is more noticeable by players.

 

-Regarding the train:

The bottom of the tank train in B is let that way on purpose. The common flow with one entrance (rush main) makes Ts prefer that one rather than the blocky one (which is closer to CT). I'm giving cts a little advantage there, despite Ts can use the small platform to remain behind without their feets being seen or hide behind wheels. It is a mechanic I liked as it may be interesting when dealing with defuse situations, the train is close and you can always go around (you may know that situation). As it is I think Ts have ways to control that.

 

-Wood planks:

Fair observation. I'll make them more "natural".

 

Thanks for the compliment, I'm glad you liked it.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Deh0lise

[shm0]

Hey Deh0lise,

 

I took some time to play 30 rounds on your map with expert bots - both CT and T.  I'm a big fan of the art, texturing and the backdrop, very well done!  The theme is nice too, feels cold, abandoned, remote.  The shadow casting is pretty too  I really like the layout - the up and down verticality is very well executed  We don't see this enough in CS maps.  The design is quick to learn, which is great.  It seems like it would be a really fun map to play with the right number of people.

 

I do have some feedback, which hopefully is constructive for you.  I guess I should mention that I've been playing CS since the first day it came out in 1999 - I've competed in leagues and tournaments and it's my all time favourite game .  I've been designing a CS:GO map of my own for the past while - I always learn so much from other people playing my map - it's hard to see difficult areas for people when you know the map like the back of your hand

 

Anyways, my thoughts - again just my opinion from my short time playing the map with bots.  I have the utmost respect for your work and dedication and only intend this feedback in a constructive manner   

 

• I think A is pretty solid and has a fantastic unique feel to it.  The design feels slim and natural, there's a good number of CT spots but also a balance of T pick spots.  The open design of the site makes flashbangs and smoke grenade gameplay more interesting.
• There's definitely still some dark areas around the map - I know most people just drop their gamma to 1.6 anyways, but 2.2 (default) gives a better representation of how it should look.  The dark spots that really matter the most IMO are the ones near the choke points, especially the train tunnels @ B could be brightened up as it can be hard to see CTs and gives them a bit of an advantage, when really the Terrorists should have the advantage for successfully taking the bombsite. (I guess Train's site A is a good example of this)
• I feel like some areas, especially around B could be tightened up.  The site is a nice design, but um, I guess around the left/mid (from CT perspective) choke point and the upper walkway area for CTs feel a little large - and the actual width of the site overall feels like it could be slimmed down.  I was playing with bots, so it's difficult to judge, but it felt like Terrorists maybe had too many places to look coming into the site (from both the direct path and mid access point).
• Mid is great, I love how CTs can hold and spot for Terrorists to cross.  The cross to another path into B is fantastic, the idea that I gathered is that it allows Terrorists to apply more pressure onto B and give them an upper hand. I mean, correct if I'm wrong.  I do however, have to say that I feel there was an issue with this execution on this.  Mainly because this vantage point for CTs:

I guess my thoughts on this gameplay area is that the angle is really awkward for Terrorists to cover while pushing into B. Assuming that they've engaged CTs in mid, and crossed to this area successfully, it feels like they should have a little bit of a break from combat - a chance to reload and collect themselves.  Also for successfully crossing middle, Terrorists should be rewarded, and this area actually kind of puts them at a disadvantage.  I feel like CTs should be fearful that Terrorists were able to cross mid, which should cause a rotate of CTs from A to back up B?

 

With that being said, I do see why this is here however, as it's off the main branch from CT spawn, and removing this would make that path only have 1 exit - however, I was looking at the design and thought perhaps a staircase placed here could replace this (please excuse my quick and horrible MS paint skillz  )

 

 

This is just a quick suggestion: I hope this makes sense and I hope you don't mind me giving feedback on this.  Again, this is from playing with Bots so it's hard to determine how this area feels - but this feedback comes from an assumption I've made on this area and it's intended design which I realize I may have the complete wrong perspective on the design intentions.  I absolutely mean no creative offense/disrespect, and would love to hear your thoughts!

 

-----

 

I think that's about it for the stuff I noticed - the map is very nicely polished and looks fantastic.  The uniqueness of the design is great.  I would love to play some time on it with real people or even test 5v5 - please let me know if you're organizing anything.

 

Keep up the great work!

Edited January 24, 2015 by shm0

[Deh0lise]

 

 

Thanks for the time and analysis shm0!

 

- In the different 5on5 matches I've played bombsite A was the preferred option, it is more interesting and fun than B. As T playing two lanes, using smokes or boost sneaking made rounds funny and diverse. It's not the common basic plain bombsite (v.g dust like). Cover positions for CT are strong but more limited in number once you know how the site works, and it is also easier to play picking, i.e "frag someone and we'll see what we do".

 

- Bombsite B is a kind of a tribute to de_train and shares some ideas. While planting in bombsite A usually takes more time, in my experience, it is easier to smoke and plant in bombsite B. In case of rushing CTs stand either on the right, catwalk or lit tunnel (anyway, in case of waiting they won't usually stand farther because of rotation times), you can check all spots one at a time with the razed wall or smoking from safe zones (ramp, T alley), and the height of the trains make it easy to plant while CTs have to uncover themselves.

 

This how it works: anyone walking on catwalk is exposed and practically uncovered (also the one sniping in skylight room may be killed from behind the vertical vent inside main T or outside); tunnels act as a deterrent because they're tight and long (specially for awps), and Ts natural flow goes to round train+dark tunnel so it may not be an option for rotations. As a T once you're on B spot the advantage turns around as the whole CT spots  advantage (but the close one in vent) lies in the distance and good angles that get lost with closer distance and train's height, the tunnels length and not seeing those below catwalk. Retaking from catwalk doesn't work (too many angles/exposition), so CTs tend to retake from tunnels or the secondary route either from skylight room (breakable wood) or middle.

 

I'd like to test it more in a 5on5 to do more changes in B, but I agree on the breakable route being a bad angle. One solution I've thought about is moving the clothes from where they are to just above the door, you'll be able to see the shadow of anyone above it and the angle would be better. I completely agree about it having to be rewarding, but I'm not sure about cutting it or making it go to middle, as now works wonders for rotations. I'll have to check if doing this change is enough and lets Ts apply more pressure to B without being assassinated unfairly.

 

In respect to reducing bombsite B... I've tried blocking dark tunnel, but it didn't feel right... in case of closing that again I should probably have to adjust the other tunnel (make it wider) and maybe play with a derailed train in dark tunnel lane to reduce a bit the size of the actual bombspot.

 

Now I'm working in something else in my spare time, but I'll look into and if it is possible test it in a 5on5 as it is a big mess with a lot of people and bots are useless for this matter.

 

Glad you liked some stuff and thanks for the feedback!

Edited January 24, 2015 by Deh0lise

[jackophant]

Map looks great. I'm intrigued to see the readability when people are trying to be sneaky.

 

Give me a shout if you do the 5v5, I'd love to help out

[Deh0lise]

I've updated the map fixing respawn times and adjusting the middle issue we talked before. Now once you cross the door in middle there is a roof above, so you are covered and "safe". Also Rotation times between bombsites have been reduced by adding another route in B. Attacking B should be easier now as it IS be possible to coordinate two attacks at the same time without crossing middle, faking/switching bombsite will also be easier.

 

Besides the aforesaid, I've also made few minor fixes like clipping, prop placement (flying) etc.

 

DL: //goo.gl/Cy8SpV

[catfood]

Last update (besides future bugs). This time I've made a blend modulate texture for the wood on A and made it more snowy so it is more consistent with the rest of the map. I've also removed the stars from the 2d skybox, made it less lowres and placed different planes of stars to give it more depth.

 

You can find the download and changelog in the item's workshop page.

 

nice sky

[catfood]

I pooped:





I tried to do some "concept art" over one of your screenshots. I seriously hope you don't take it the wrong way

Edited February 19, 2015 by catfood

[Deh0lise]

I pooped:

I tried to do some "concept art" over one of your screenshots. I seriously hope you don't take it the wrong way

 

It's ok catfood, I appreciate it. I got used to how it looked but you're right, it needs something else. I thought about adding some letters over the upper concrete beam as I used the light just to guide players view above because of CTs.

-I like the left vents with some particles/envsmoke, it's a good idea I might implement.

-The box below is something I didn't want to add in order not to give too many hints about going above the wood plank thus making smart Ts work as a team boosting and having an advantage (just like the old dark crate in d2 circular stairs).

-I'm not adding the tree as I don't want any prop on the ground over there and might look strange from another spot if it is over the roof, but something there might prove useful for the composition.

-The A sign might be useful, also a B sign over the far metal door, but I didn't want to encourage Ts to go middle aggressively, specially the first time they play the map, getting through mid is not as common as it is in cbble for example. Middle routes are secondary, mostly for support.

-Cables and ac are nice, and adding some colors with stripes or pipes might be fine too, I might try it.

-The window's frame is something I agree and I have already tried with brushes but was badly lit, I should probably have to make a model to make it look pretty.

 

Thanks

[FMPONE]

One critique I have of this level is that it uses a tremendous amount of colors. I understand that they're all sort of underneath the same general "tone", but if you want to do that many colors I think they will still clash and conflict with one another. I'd really recommend restricting texture colors to 2-3 colors at most in any given area. I think this way you'll get a generally complimentary color scheme. 

 

For instance, yellow sort of cautions trips, red bricks, and white snow. Etc. That's my big issue with this map running around it, you did a good job with the buildings and the geometry but the texturing is extremely noisy and there is no consistent theme to grab onto. If you can dramatically reduce the amount of noise on your textures and improve the lighting such that there is better readability, I think you'd get to a stronger visual.

 

Where is the level located?

 

What is going on?

 

What story is there for players to interact with?

[Vaya]

One critique I have of this level is that it uses a tremendous amount of colors. I understand that they're all sort of underneath the same general "tone", but if you want to do that many colors I think they will still clash and conflict with one another. I'd really recommend restricting texture colors to 2-3 colors at most in any given area. I think this way you'll get a generally complimentary color scheme. 

 

For instance, yellow sort of cautions trips, red bricks, and white snow. Etc. That's my big issue with this map running around it, you did a good job with the buildings and the geometry but the texturing is extremely noisy and there is no consistent theme to grab onto. If you can dramatically reduce the amount of noise on your textures and improve the lighting such that there is better readability, I think you'd get to a stronger visual.

 

 

Do you think the new DE_train suffers from the same issue?  It has the same sort of 'patchwork warehouses' theme with lots of different colours used.

 

A lot of the textures used are almost pastels (with little noise or detailing) which I think helps it blend.

[FMPONE]

 

One critique I have of this level is that it uses a tremendous amount of colors. I understand that they're all sort of underneath the same general "tone", but if you want to do that many colors I think they will still clash and conflict with one another. I'd really recommend restricting texture colors to 2-3 colors at most in any given area. I think this way you'll get a generally complimentary color scheme. 

 

For instance, yellow sort of cautions trips, red bricks, and white snow. Etc. That's my big issue with this map running around it, you did a good job with the buildings and the geometry but the texturing is extremely noisy and there is no consistent theme to grab onto. If you can dramatically reduce the amount of noise on your textures and improve the lighting such that there is better readability, I think you'd get to a stronger visual.

 

 

Do you think the new DE_train suffers from the same issue?  It has the same sort of 'patchwork warehouses' theme with lots of different colours used.

 

A lot of the textures used are almost pastels (with little noise or detailing) which I think helps it blend.

 

 

Not really. New train has a pretty effective theme. I agree it's a bit patchwork, but thats intentional. I think the amount of grit and minute noise on the textures in Rails is a big issue, and also the lack of distinct shapes in the diffuse textures. As I say the geometry is nice so it's worth trying to massage the textures a bit and establish a consistent theme that ties the map together. Also I don't really remember seeing any normal maps on the Rails textures. Stuff like that goes a long way and can have the effect of seeming to reduce noise

 

Deh0, maybe you can post 2d flats here and we can help critique?

[Deh0lise]

I am aware of the current trend on level design in CSGO, the clean looks with almost no detail on the textures but normals or the blurry/washed out textures in the new de_train. Regardless of that you have to take into account this map has been in development for very long and because of that the art direction doesn't follow such style as it wasn't trendy by then. Both maps resemble old games color palette, being rust more obvious to hl series, for example.

 

As I come from CSS I knew what the scene demanded back then, 1.6 style maps with minimum amount of props and few basic textures all over the map. That's why you may look back to my old map de_rust and feel like it is empty or de_rails and feel like there it is too detail texture wise (the amount of props and details are posterior work I did in order to make it appealing to current standards). As the direction was towards a more detailed style in textures you'll notice visibility is taken into account by using a strong contrast and not by reducing the amount of detail on them. Snow and white walls are a clear example of what I'm talking.

 

Imo the best way to improve visibility in this point would be to make custom player models with a different color (yellow, orange, red etc) thus not getting rid of the art direction over the map nor the "realistic" texture style. I'd say even more, I'd like that to be viable art direction in our maps as not all themes are suited for the clean style you mention (season, agency etc), and I like the old dirty looks.

 

Meanwhile, the player models I've chosen have not just white parts but dark ones and I had no difficulty spotting them, but I don't discard those playing for the first time may not know how the map plays, where player might be at and because of that will take them 0,2s more than it would take them if the textures were plain, so they will blame enemy's frag on the map (or the mouse, latency, teammates  etc). That's how cs has always been.

 

Regarding colors, you may find comments on previous versions of the map stating there was not enough color variation, and it was true. Regardless of the details/brushwork I added to upgrade it to the standard level of details, I've just increased the amount of greens as planed and added few touches of orange for places I thought it would fit and would require attention. When I said I may think about adding more color was precisely for that reason, increasing orange in signs/bombspots or just placing pipes to make it easier for 1st time players to notice those CTs sniping in spawn (like I did with the light there).

 

Imo the colors chosen are fine and not frequent, despite players tend to prefer warm palettes, specially those who have not as much sun as we do here in Barcelona. In any case it's mostly green-brown-white + purple sky&lighting that sets the mood. More than the theme it was the mood what I was aiming for, and I like it. The theme is not different than train, I could place some Russian signs to call it a russian trainstation but it would really add much value to itself. To me it feels lonely, cold and far away from the city (some players even told me without asking it felt like there was a dormitory town in the skybox). Also the whole map theme is consistent, you can't really say you are in a different place at all (that's something I didn't like in the new train with the scifi part for example).

 

I agree I could've added some iconic stuff to blow up like toxic wastes or a statue, but by the time I started I had no 3d package (so I wasn't planing custom models) nor didn't matter much, I can arrange a story behind like this: "Abandoned in the old train station lies important evidence that may incriminate the main opposing political party in criminal activities. The government has sent the special forces in order to secure this information and disclose the information to the public before the elections take place.". In the end great maps like dust2 or yours de_cache are quite similar, and nobody really cares in the second match.

 

I appreciate the feedback FMPONE, it is something I'm aware of and I'm taking into account for the map I'm working on right now, but I'm not sure if blurring all the textures of de_rails would be a good idea.

 

P.S There are some bumps around (v.g white wall, snow...), but as the textures are not plain color/washed out it is not that evident. You may try the commands to see the difference, you'll see it is not huge as there is some shadow information in the color map, but they really help.

 

Thanks!