Dahell is happening in Kiev

[Puddy]

"decadend and degenerate west" 

 

Yeah, damn those westerners with their lack of vodka and long lifespans!

[⌐■_■]

Sending in Nato troops to Ukraine is just what Russia's propaganda machinery is waiting for and it's playing with fire. Suppose they get attacked then we have Nato troops fighting Russian troops right next to Russia's border.

 

I'm afraid there isn't really much the west can do for now. Putin WANTS cold war 2.0. It's the best that can happen to him to be seen as a strong leader who shows the middle finger to "decadend and degenerate west" and by that holding all the power in his hands to become a proper dictator. He's not giving much about freedom and human rights already and it will only get worse the closer he gets to building his new Soviet Union.

 

All that the west can do is to play the long game, getting rid of our economic dependencies (with the Middle East aswell while we are at it) and not fall for Russias provocations and cold war antics.

 

I don't think Russia is wanting a cold war 2.0. look at how far they've come from Stalin. would also be highly unlikely that Putin wants another soviet union tbh. those times were hard and the Russians know that. sure, it's still corrupt but just look at what Russia was 50 years ago and what it has become, there is simply no basis for those assumptions.

I don't think Putin wants war, because although large parts of Europe depend on Russia for gas Europe would still win a war with Russia - especially since the USA would probably intervene at least. We may not have the masses of people, but we have the technology and resources to outlast Russia in a war. not that we should want that of course, but I think Putin knows this too. so yes, we should play this long game you talk about, I totally agree on that - but with the addition of flying in military to secure our people under the cover of NATO and possibly the USA.

 

I do think though that Putin is focused on re branding Russia as a strong state who should be taken seriously outside of asia/ the middle east. not saying I agree, but just how I see it from my pov.

 

over to the MH17 crash. a proper Dutch reaction would be to convince other EU states and America that military involvement is in fact necessary (which it fucking is). Like Sprony said, a few hundred commando's securing the terrain, letting people do their job repatriating the bodies, identifying the victims, etc. making it short, clean it up, transport the victims to their countries and getting the hell out of there. Putin is a psychopath but certainly not stupid, I don't think he'd attack people cleaning a mess he is partially responsible for. and the Dutch leadership could save face a little bit and pretend they actually care about their citizens more then they care about their own comfort.

Edited July 21, 2014 by killertomato

[FrieChamp]

 

What would a strong Dutch reaction be anyway?

 

I'm not shouting for war. There's too much misinformation going around to point fingers. We're too small to make a stand but if I was Prime Minister I would evoke article 5 of the NATO alliance. Which means that if we are attacked, which we are, we're all attacked.

 

A Malaysian airline was attacked. The majority of the passengers just happened to be Dutch. I'm not sure if article 5 applies here. Regardless a military operation to extract the corpses is an option but not an easy undertaking considering that the body count is in the hundreds and the remains are spread out. What if the rebels use anti-air equipment again? I cannot imagine how difficult this situation must be for the relatives of the victims,but sending troops into a warzone would mean putting more Dutch (or NATO) lives in danger. What the rebels and Russians are doing is not right and they need to be pressured into giving access to the bodies and wreckage. But I don't think a NATO operation is the right answer.

[Steppenwolf]

I don't think Russia is wanting a cold war 2.0. look at how far they've come from Stalin. would also be highly unlikely that Putin wants another soviet union tbh. those times were hard and the Russians know that. sure, it's still corrupt but just look at what Russia was 50 years ago and what it has become, there is simply no basis for those assumptions.

I don't think Putin wants war, because although large parts of Europe depend on Russia for gas Europe would still win a war with Russia - especially since the USA would probably intervene at least. We may not have the masses of people, but we have the technology and resources to outlast Russia in a war. not that we should want that of course, but I think Putin knows this too. so yes, we should play this long game you talk about, I totally agree on that - but with the addition of flying in military to secure our people under the cover of NATO and possibly the USA.

 

Pay more attention to the Russian propaganda apparatus and the laws that Putin comes up with. Everything is pointing in a direction that separates Russia more and more from the western world and reignates pride in the Soviet era. A cold war is only a logical consequence of that. Russian media and political rhetoric is full of of the whataboutism that was so typical for the propaganda rhetoric of the communist era. And read some comments from brainwashed Russians on the internet. It's all "Nato this, CIA that". The cold war is back in people's heads and not much is missing for it to become official state doctrine.

 

When i say new Soviet Union i don't mean one Stalin style tho. Putin and his gang are oligarchs. He's probably aiming for something that's similar to the Chinese model. One ruling party with an almost unrestricted capitalist system that allows the oligarchs and party officials to fill their pockets to the brim. And Russian people will not give a shit for the most part as long as they can feel their national pride. Just take a look at the Sochi Olympics and how little resistance and outcry there was to the unprecedented corruption.

[⌐■_■]

Pay more attention to the Russian propaganda apparatus and the laws that Putin comes up with. Everything is pointing in a direction that separates Russia more and more from the western world and reignates pride in the Soviet era. A cold war is only a logical consequence of that.

 

to be honest I think this cold war 2.0 situation is not the result of the changing mentality of the Russians. I think both are a reaction to western interference with the Ukraine (where Yanukovych basically had to chose between an alliance with the west or Russia). it is worrying though, and you're definitely right about the fact that we've already landed in another cold war like state with Russia...

 

I must admit a military intervention would be stupid, especially now. I still don't think it would turn into a bigger conflict, though it would mean risking more lives for something already infinitely tragic - which I won't stand for. still though, part of me wanted to see that happen.

 

When i say new Soviet Union i don't mean one Stalin style tho. Putin and his gang are oligarchs. He's probably aiming for something that's similar to the Chinese model. One ruling party with an almost unrestricted capitalist system that allows the oligarchs and party officials to fill their pockets to the brim.

 

Makes sense to me.

 

found this video the be really insightful btw:

 

 

R1ar, you're surely reading this. what are your experiences with the Russian mentality towards the west if I may ask? are you guys afraid of another full blown cold war? what is the general consensus on your side of the border?

Edited July 21, 2014 by killertomato

[KoKo5oVaR]

Yeah I hardly see Putin as a communist too, although i'm not sure his predecessors had been communists themselves. And I agree with Step idea of the Russian government affirming its independence by the way of nationalism and how they can act on the world diplomacy in their own legitimate way. (Although that would be true for the western block)

 

I think an explanation of the diplomatic changes has to be the recent exploitation of shale gas which probably redraw the strategic resources map and remove many dependencies for the countries which had to depend on the world market for their industry need in fossil energy. ( or buy it to someone else ) Especially for the US who probably don't buy as much Gas to Russia anymore.

 

But I don't know for you guys in your respective countries ? But i feel right now there is a path in the direction of protectionism in reaction to the free world market (maybe with reason ?), at least in Europe, people seem to want more empowerment of the state too.

[Sprony]

A Malaysian airline was attacked. The majority of the passengers just happened to be Dutch. I'm not sure if article 5 applies here. Regardless a military operation to extract the corpses is an option but not an easy undertaking considering that the body count is in the hundreds and the remains are spread out. What if the rebels use anti-air equipment again? I cannot imagine how difficult this situation must be for the relatives of the victims,but sending troops into a warzone would mean putting more Dutch (or NATO) lives in danger. What the rebels and Russians are doing is not right and they need to be pressured into giving access to the bodies and wreckage. But I don't think a NATO operation is the right answer.

 

I hear you and you are right. But perspective changes, in case of my colleague for instance, when it's your cousin and his wife that are rotting in the sun. Then all of sudden, you are willing to risk it all just to bring your loved ones home and give them some dignity. 

[Steppenwolf]

to be honest I think this cold war 2.0 situation is not the result of the changing mentality of the Russians. I think both are a reaction to western interference with the Ukraine (where Yanukovych basically had to chose between an alliance with the west or Russia).

 

That's what Russia Today wants you to believe. But blaming the crisis on the west is a total disregard of the ugly history between Russian oppressors and ethnic Ukrainians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor) and the fact that a convicted rapist and election fraudster (of Russian ethnicity) was in charge of the contracts. Moscow was stirring the shit from the beginning.

[KoKo5oVaR]

Really I think the worst that could happen to Russia is risking an embargo from the western block on the exportation of its fossil energy, that is the primary actor of Russia economy and they are dependant of their european customers (germany importing the most fossil energy from Russia paradoxaly); the more its going, the less the UE and the US are dependant on Russia exports, because in any way there is still the middle east and the arabic countries to fill the holes.

 

http://www.gazpromexport.ru/en/statistics/

 

While Russia is standing on seizing Crimea, I don't think the UE countries will move because of their high dependency of the russian gas importations and what they have to lose. But if it gets more serious and the western countries would cut Gazprom taps and increase the loan rates on Russia, that would mean cutting the branch on which Russia is sitting and throw Russia's economy in the hole.

 

So there's no question to me that the west (Especially the recent US shale gas reserves, which need clients and would like to steal the Russian market http://www.fractracker.org/2014/04/geopolitics-and-hydrocarbons/) is exercising a big pressure on Russia by that mean. And probably did before the Ukrainian crisis, and since Ukraine was Russia number one client and their access to turkey through the black sea, it's almost normal they have to step in against a government closer to the west.

 

Basically the biggest threat to Russia is the US shale gas exploitations stealing their european exportation market, and that is most probably what the US wants to do and would explain a lot about the building tensions between Russia and the western block. If the baltic becomes a zone at risk and the diplomatic tensions become worse, that would be cheaper and more convenient for the UE to turn to the US for their gas importations. Thus the US have all interest to divide the UE and Moscow. And it is Russia (and UE) who risks the most on the long term. (although the US risks to completely destroy their soils and aquifers in the mean time)

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/08/business/energy-environment/us-gas-tantalizes-europe-but-its-not-a-quick-fix.html

 

US RESCUING THE WORLD (for money) ONCE AGAIN

 

Not even speaking about morality there of course

 

But yeah, if we would start a world war 3 over gas pipelines, talk about shitty stuff

[r1ar]

One more Ukraine fighter jet in story:

 

[-HP-]

One more Ukraine fighter jet in story:

 

 

Yeah, you quote RT on Russia related news!

 

 

... and this is the second reporter this year alone, that we know of.

[Vilham]

Should really be called Bullshit Today.

[Minos]

RT gets a load of bad rep for being Russia biased, but that's a "good" thing if you ask me. Since their propaganda is completely opposite from the american side propaganda, you can get a better idea of what's really going and make up your own mind considering that the truth usually falls in the middle.

 

Anyway, Abby Martin is awesome and no US channel would ever give her so much freedom: https://www.youtube.com/user/breakingtheset

[-HP-]

Absolutely, balance is at least a good thing in this case. Gives people perspective on how biased media is and always have been.

[KoKo5oVaR]

Ugh no reactions or opinions to the well written geopolitical analysis i made with love ?   By 2020 the Russian economy will die and the UE will be energetically dependant from the US which would have opened a new market for themselves and should know an economic growth until they fracked every cm of their territory, i somehow feel pretty sure this what the Ukrainian crisis is all about. And boy will they feel sorry in 2050 when they will have destroyed their ground.