Dahell is happening in Kiev

[Vilham]

Any evidence for "shell bombing civilian land in a carpet bomb like fashion" because I have seen nothing to suggest they are doing that at all.

[⌐■_■]

gonna let it slide this time fellas, life is too short! but srsly Sentura, you're blowing shit out of your ass again. it's funny how many dumb shits feel entitled to having an opinion on things they don't know shit about lol.

 

also, the plane that got shot down above Ukraine has been really heavy news here in the Netherlands. streets were buzzing with people talking about it (I mean literally) and flags were hanging half mast everywhere. sad stuff man. because the majority of the victims were Dutch, I don't expect any political retaliation which kind of makes it worse for me

Edited July 19, 2014 by killertomato

[Sprony]

Bullshit, if that was true, we would still be holding grudges for the Crusades, the Colonizers, the Germans, you name it. The solution for this lies in education.

Noble but unrealistic (not that mine is any better). Point is, there's been so much bloodshed and retribution. Vengeace upon vegeance that there's no stopping it, ever!

 

 

 

This war has been going long enough that time should have taken care of it by now, only reason it hasn't is because the previous generation poisons the minds of the new, instead of teaching them to think for themselves and make a call.

 

 

You make it sound so simple dude. I'm not arguing that you don't have a point. Most of us here still hate the Germans and that's 70 years ago. Mostly due to the older generations telling us the horrors of the Nazi's, so yeah, you are absolutely right about that. I'm just saying it's unrealistic to expect that to happen. Those people hate each other, it's been going on for a long time, by now no one came out of it unscathed. It's not like people are magically going to start and turn the other cheek. Not while this still happens on a day to day basis. The only reason why our hatred for the Germans slowly vanished is because there hasn't been any trouble since. Only then will the wounds heal and the scars become less apparent each year. Same goes for your other examples. None of it was fixed by education. All of it slowly faded because it stopped happening and you make it sound like all is good, which isn't so. There's still hatred for a lot of those things everywhere.

 

So again, I like the way you think and I truly wish that they could do what you propose, but it's still unrealistic and my point (not about nuking but about yours being unrealistic) certainly isn't bullshit (whether you agree with it or not).

[dux]

I think it's better I withdraw from this discussion.

 

What a liar!

[Sprony]

 

I think it's better I withdraw from this discussion.

 

What a liar!

 

 

Why? I haven't said a word about the Ukraine. I didn't even respond to KT his post and he's a fellow Dutchee. Sentura went off topic and I replied to that. Different discussion mate

[D3ads]

Sorry I know we're offtopic, but I can't ignore complete bullshit...

 

Let's just be clear here: Israel breaks numerous conventions by literally INVADING another country

 

Uhhh... what country? Palestine is not a country nor has it ever been.

 

 

not to mention the illegal settlements.

 

It's debatable on the legal status of the properties, all sorts of facts contradict each other and the UN sure as hell isn't neutral in this situation, hasn't been for a long time.

 

 

shell bombing civilian land in a carpet bomb like fashion to flush out terrorists isn't right or just.

 

There have been around 4000 airstrikes on Gaza, if Israel was "carpet bombing" civilian areas deliberately, there would be somewhere around 5000+ people dead. IDF phones people, texts, drops leaflets and intitiates the knock on roof effect to give a 15 minute warning for people to leave. Hamas on the other hand doesn't give any warnings about attacks, it hides weapons and terrorists inside schools, mosques, hospitals and civilian homes. These are facts, not propaganda.. the evidence is everywhere to be seen. Look where rockets are coming from in these photos;

 

Furthermore every time Hamas fires a rocket into civilian areas like Tel Aviv, they are commiting a war crime. Hamas couldn't care less about Palestinian people, every death that they suffer is another way to carry on brainwashing the masses into believing everything is down to Israel. Every death that occurs in the IDF operation is down to Hamas, not Israel.

 

 

Zionism on top of this is just terrorism legalized.

 

  Do you even know what Zionism is? You obviously don't know what terrorism is. Hamas are the terrorists as are ISIS, RIRA, ETA, Hezbollah etc Israel comes nowhere near.

 

 

Imagine any other country have such pure zeal for its country while openly discriminating against another. They get away with it because of the huge pro Israeli lobby in the US, and the US generally not giving a fuck about conventions.

 

Imagine any other country not defending itself against attacks on it's people... If Denmark was being fired with rockets everyday, would you be against action of the Danish army to respond? The only reason only one Israeli has died thus far is because of the Iron Dome SAM system, without it, people would be dying daily as they have in the past. Every single day, there are sirens sounding and people are running for cover, would you tolerate that?

 

 

Also, if you think it's equal:

 

..and in those operations, what lead to Israel launching attacks? Hamas... again. After Pillar Of Cloud, there were about 3 days of a ceasefire before rockets started being fired from Gaza again, of course no one reported on it because Israel didn't respond to it. Let me also point out that after Israel ended their occupation of Gaza in 2009, the Palestinians had a chance to build their own state proper and prosper, instead they were once again brainwashed by Hamas into believing that they can have all of historical "Palestine" and eliminate the jews and thus we end up where we are today. At this rate, Israel will take control of Gaza again, nevermind end the blockade (which is necessary otherwise there would be all sorts of ships carrying weapons into port to supply Hamas with more ways to commit terror).

 

tldr version: Israel cannot make peace with Gaza so long as a terrorist entity which wants it's destruction remains in power.

Edited July 19, 2014 by D3ads

[Puddy]

rant removed, was too flamey

 

/rant

Edited July 19, 2014 by Puddy

[dux]

Just walk in and steamroll Hamas? Walk in and lolroll Isis? They were more than happy to do it before in 2004 with Sadda- Ohhh... there's no oil. Nevermind.

Edited July 19, 2014 by dux

[Sprony]

Now I'm going to give you something to complain about Dux:

 

I'm at work today. But a colleague is missing. A good colleague, someone I really like and who I've worked with for 8 years. So I ask what's up? Apparently she has gotten special leave. She was working last Thursday when she just came back from a couple of days off due to her favorite cousin's wedding. They are Hindus so those weddings take some time. Anyway, her cousin left for his honeymoon the day she got back to work. She received a message that afternoon that it was her cousins plane that was shot down. She broke down right there, the whole department in tears and she was brought home in shock. 

 

In the mean while we have a prime minister who doesn't have the balls to take action while the bodies are being toyed with and thrown in trucks. My blood is boiling.

[⌐■_■]

In the mean while we have a prime minister who doesn't have the balls to take action while the bodies are being toyed with and thrown in trucks. My blood is boiling.

 

this. i wish for once in a few fucking centuries The Netherlands wouldn't have weak ass leadership

[Sprony]

 

In the mean while we have a prime minister who doesn't have the balls to take action while the bodies are being toyed with and thrown in trucks. My blood is boiling.

 

this. i wish for once in a few fucking centuries The Netherlands wouldn't have weak ass leadership

 

 

Yeah, it's far cry from our Golden Age.

 

Wellicht moeten we blij zijn dat we in ieder geval Rutte hebben, hoe krom dat ook klinkt, want als Harry Potter er nog had gezeten dan hadden we waarschijnlijk nog onze excuses aangeboden dat we daar vlogen. 

[Pampers]

What would a strong Dutch reaction be anyway?

[Sprony]

What would a strong Dutch reaction be anyway?

 

I'm not shouting for war. There's too much misinformation going around to point fingers. We're too small to make a stand but if I was Prime Minister I would evoke article 5 of the NATO alliance. Which means that if we are attacked, which we are, we're all attacked. Then I would appeal for help to send in a minimum of Apaches and troops to secure the crash site immediately and recover all the bodies. After that, I would simply withdraw and wait for the investigative report. Depending on the results I would bring my case to the UN and do my best to see the guilty being brought to justice. But that's fantasy land.

 

In reality, if it's Russia for instance, we are too dependent on their gas and we make tons of money exporting to them. So we will let it slip because money has always been more important in human civilization than justice, dignity or respect.

[Steppenwolf]

Sending in Nato troops to Ukraine is just what Russia's propaganda machinery is waiting for and it's playing with fire. Suppose they get attacked then we have Nato troops fighting Russian troops right next to Russia's border.

 

I'm afraid there isn't really much the west can do for now. Putin WANTS cold war 2.0. It's the best that can happen to him to be seen as a strong leader who shows the middle finger to "decadend and degenerate west" and by that holding all the power in his hands to become a proper dictator. He's not giving much about freedom and human rights already and it will only get worse the closer he gets to building his new Soviet Union.

 

All that the west can do is to play the long game, getting rid of our economic dependencies (with the Middle East aswell while we are at it) and not fall for Russias provocations and cold war antics.

[Sentura]

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/12920-letter-from-gaza-by-a-norwegian-doctor