[CS:GO] de_convention

[SamCom]

I've decided to try my hand at a CS:GO map. I've never made a Counter-Strike map of any kind, so I'm not sure how well I'm doing gameplay wise. Obviously it's very early visually, but I'd like to get feedback on how it plays before I start really detailing. I've been testing it most of the afternoon and evening with bots, then jumping back into the editor and making tweaks, keeping in mind that bots don't usually play all that well.

So I'd really like to get this playtested by actual people.

I've put up the version I'm calling an alpha here: http://steamcommunit...s/?id=146135089

Give it a look/play, let me know what you think.

The original idea for a setting was a convention center, although it's mutated a bit since then.

An overhead: counterterrorists spawn at the top, terrorists at the bottom.

[TarrySruman]

Woah, that's a pretty convoluted-looking overview. Could be neat but right now it seems like there might be too many paths.

[SamCom]

I was wondering about that. It started out simpler, but I felt like I wanted a way to flank or reach another area of the map.

Are heavily cross linked paths a bad thing for CS?

[KungFuSquirrel]

Yeah, seconding what he said, when I look at this I see a Natural Selection-style layout more than I see a CS layout. If you look at maps like Dust, Train, Aztec, etc., they're much simpler layouts built more around the choke point clashes between teams. Think about where your teams are going to meet - in this layout it's hard to see.

Flanking routes are good, but I'd work in fewer of them on a simpler scale and work on the center of the layout - right now the middle of the map is mostly just a route from one spawn to the other rather than a way to get to the bomb points. I'd also look at your CT spawn point - the most direct route to each bomb point involves actually backing up and/or turning around, which is a strange flow. I think paring down some of the outer routes and re-working the center of the map could do you some good.

[SamCom]

when I look at this I see a Natural Selection-style layout more than I see a CS layout.

Maybe I should look into mapping for NS2!

I worked out a new layout tonight, and uploaded it to the workshop.

Here's the new layout:

I pushed both spawns back to give them some breathing room, and fix the awkward approach for the CTs. I also trimmed off a lot of side paths. But that center is going to need some more work.

I see what you mean about the center and not having great chokepoints - a lot of bot games have ended up with one team not meeting the other until their second loop through the map. I'm going to have to go back to the drawing board and do another revision, I think. The solution's just not coming to me at the moment though.

Edited May 20, 2013 by SamCom

[Puddy]

Don't trust bots for shit.

[SamCom]

Don't trust bots for shit.

I'm figuring that one out. It's unfortunate, they could be a really cool tool, but they do some really stupid shit.

Not saying I could program better bots, but damn.

No bots, don't worry about defusing the bomb, that's cool, just wander off. Could you watch the bomb sites maybe? No? Ok, I guess that's fine. How about choosing a guy to shoot and sticking with him? Also too hard? Really?

[TarrySruman]

I find that if you change the setting to let them get the bomb they behave significantly less stupidly. Still bad but it seems that when they always defer the bomb to you they end up all going in one direction.

Also that new layout looks significantly better. Having lots of cross-linking like you said makes the fights confusing and frustrating because enemies are coming from all directions and you're constantly flanked.

[SamCom]

I made one last tweak - blocked the mid entrance on the CT side. I think it made it play a little more solid.

Mapcore testing tomorrow! Give it a try, let me know what you think!

[FMPONE]

my immediate impression is that ct's need another route into both bomb sites, because they basicaly have one route that splits into 2 ways only, at each. that said, the layout looks simple enough to work. see you guys tommorow.

Edited May 21, 2013 by FMPONE

[BaRRaKID]

Have you tested the timings? It seems like the Ts will take much longer than the CTs to reach the bombsites and that will put the chokepoints in the middle of the map between the T spawn and the bombsites. Ideally they should be closer to the bombsites.

Take a look at bombsite B on dust2 for example, if both teams rush that bombsite they will meet in the tunnel that connects the bombsite to the dark hall and whoever wins the battle there has easy access to the bombsite, you should aim for something like that.

[blackdog]

I'm just looking at the pictures, but what Fmpone says makes sense.

First layout looked interesting to me, I mean it seemed CTs were invited to go middle and then turn left or right depeding on what side Ts chose. But it seemed definitely too convoluted.

Have you tested the timings? [...] Take a look at bombsite B on dust2 for example, if both teams rush that bombsite they will meet in the tunnel that connects the bombsite to the dark hall and whoever wins the battle there has easy access to the bombsite, you should aim for something like that.

Ts always have longer routes to the bombsites, that isn't necessarily an advantage, how the covers are positioned around the site determine if one team can lock down the area or not. Then the distance between bombsites would help determine if it would be of advantage to lock down a bombsite, or instead position the team further (hence meeting the Ts in some chokepoint).

That said, do agree on the timing observation, but I hope the tunnel thing isn't replicated too... I love Dust 2 but I hate the tunnel fights you mention I always detour.

[SamCom]

my immediate impression is that ct's need another route into both bomb sites, because they basically have one route that splits into 2 ways only, at each.

That's what I had before, a path right down the middle. It's a good point, the earlier layout did have more flexibility, but I didn't like having a straight run from one spawn to the other. We'll see how it looks in playtesting, something to keep in mind.

Have you tested the timings? It seems like the Ts will take much longer than the CTs to reach the bombsites and that will put the chokepoints in the middle of the map between the T spawn and the bombsites.

For sure, the CTs reach the bomb sites first.

In my best John Madden style, here's the current predicted choke points, after bot testing and timing:

The long orange lines are rough sniping sight lines, and the orange circles are where combat's most likely to happen if both sides just run forwards.

I think there are still enough paths around the bombsites proper that CTs will have some difficulty locking them down, but we'll see in testing.

But my worries are not enough access points to B (right side), and possibly too long of a sniper sightline on A (left side).

[cincinnati]

Have you tested the timings? It seems like the Ts will take much longer than the CTs to reach the bombsites and that will put the chokepoints in the middle of the map between the T spawn and the bombsites. Ideally they should be closer to the bombsites.

Take a look at bombsite B on dust2 for example, if both teams rush that bombsite they will meet in the tunnel that connects the bombsite to the dark hall and whoever wins the battle there has easy access to the bombsite, you should aim for something like that.

that being said, site A chokepoint on d2 is halfway between the site and t spawn and is the site that Ts seem to prefer.

[BaRRaKID]

That A site chokepoint on D2 (i'm guessing you're talking about long A) is for control of the sniper pit/alley, the actual chokepoint to control the bombsite from that route it's when that path crosses with the ramp that leads to the CT spawn.

Obviously depending on the map timing and location of chokepoints work differently, but it's a CS convention that both teams should arrive at the same time at the secondary bombsite, and that the CTs arrive first at the primary bombsite.

That's not as bad as it seemed, you could test moving the T spawn just one second closer to the bombsites to push those chokepoints abit back. It seems to me like it would work better that way.