Tropes vs Women in Video Games

[⌐■_■]

[selmitto]

Wtf thrik did you know about this! A hispanic on this forum! An outrage, this forum is for white males only! /s

Thrik makes exceptions sometimes, e.g. helder and mino.

So am I not a latin/ hispanic anymore? Did you forget about me? That's racist!

lol

[Bunglo]

Don't misquote me, anselmo, tryin make me look racist. I specifically stated you were mexican.

[FMPONE]

lol

[selmitto]

Don't misquote me, anselmo, tryin make me look racist. I specifically stated you were mexican.

yo no soy mexicano, Я бразилец

[Taylor]

Err, guys, this is actually just the EOT thread now.

[Steppenwolf]

When the straight white men of MapCore unite to talk about how sexism / homophobia / racism isn't real and isn't worth talking about, especially in the game industry, you're all sending a message to other MapCore community members -- don't post, don't participate, your feelings aren't valid.

I think that's okay in EOT because that's the special space for it; I avoid EOT and I'm fine with it.

But if you do it out here, in public, keep in mind that people are going to see this, and you're making someone like me feel less welcome here. What, so I'm going to have to start avoiding the "Gaming Discussion" forums too? I wonder how the women of MapCore feel?

I'm not saying "censor" your sexist opinions; feel as sexist as you want. But just know that there's a chilling effect on others you're intimidating with that attitude. A consequence. And really, you end up looking tactless.

Don't worry, no one is going to speak-up and complain because they feel intimidated. They'll just leave.

I'm not sure your post is for real because it sounds like straight copypasta from a feminist blog.

But since this isn't EOT i'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

First off i think it's presumtuous that "straight white males" arn't supposed to express an opinion on racism, homophobia etc. that doesn't comply 100% withyour own. People are individuals no matter their skin color or sexual orientation and everybody has the freedom to express an opinion. It has no bearing on the validity or invalidity of an opinion.

The next thing is you put things in peoples mouth or make wild assumptions about everyone. Please point me to "sexism / homophobia / racism isn't real" comments in this thread. I think it's very real which makes it the more dubious that she spents 160k$ on badly researched videos about a pretty trivial subject in the grand scheme of things and still keeps asking for donations mind you. Ther's 1000x more sexism in the comment sections about her stuff then in the video games she talks about. And those arn't even remotely close to the worst abuse that women and homosexuals can experience irl. But hey who gives a shit about setting priorities, right?

Then what really irks me is how arbitrary the word sexism gets thrown around as a knockout argument, completely warping the meaning of it in the process just to make other peole look bad. Instead of attacking users why not make a constructive post about why you think she's right with all her accusations and assumptions? Then we can discuss the validity of it in an equaly constructive manner.

[⌐■_■]

to summarize this thread for the people who don't like to read stuff:

Edited March 9, 2013 by killertomato

[Rick_D]

Well I have to say this surprised me a little. I struggle with my opinions on subjects like this, feminism, gay rights, racism, etc. It's very easy to just fall into the mindset of "well i don't see a problem so they must be making it into a bigger problem than it is" but the truth of the matter is we don't actually know what it's like to be on that side of the fence. I've never been a gay black woman (except for that one time, but that was just for a weekend), so how can I say for sure that I know what it's like, or claim to understand everything about it.

I watched the whole 'Man Woman Myth' series on youtube, it was really interesting and highlighted a lot of problems with media and cultures aprroach to male/female equality; for example women are focused on very heavily whereas men are maligned and treated as numbers, a good example is when soldiers, firefights, pile, etc die or are injured on the job the classic line is "10 firefighters were killed today", or "9 firefighters and a woman were killed today", and so on. men are virtually 100% of workplace deaths, men have no rights in family courts, men are treated as rapists almost by default. Now this pisses me off because I know many of these things are unfair, but that is from my personal experience. But how can I possibly know what it's like from the other side?

Same with these "Women in the Video Game Industry" incentives. I find it very easy to get offended that companies are focusing on women, and providing benefits and honouring women in the games industry just for the simple fact that they are women. It's easy for me to feel that it's completely unfair, where is my trophy, where are my benefits? But then I see threads and opinions like this and suddenly it's not such a big deal; there's obviously a problem if people are doing something about it.

I can sympathise with the fact that most blacks in America (and I'm not going to say African-American, that's become as racist as saying negro or some shit) are impoverished, and therefore fall easily into criminal lifestyles. The prison system seems to exist to lock up unproportional amounts of young black males. It's very easy to say "they deserve it because they are criminals, look at all these news stories of them behaving like animals" but surely the question you have to ask is "why is it like this?".

the same thing applies with all social issues, it's worthless to denounce someone's views simply because they differ from yours, the responsible thing is to ask "why do they feel like this?". You can pick data, and pick apart their arguments and statistic but why do they feel it is an important issue?

Anyway, it's never black and white. There's going to be extremists on every side. A problem is a muddle of greys, possibly without a right or a wrong position, and to just pick a position that comforts your world view does nothing to further society or yourself as a person. Humans fight for each other every day, they do incredibly selfless acts. Your mother risked her life to bring you into this world. That guy from Nigeria risked his life moving to some frozen wasteland to give his family a better chance. That policeman puts his life on the line every day to keep his community safe. I think the very least we can do is to question our views every once in a while and try to see things from multiple viewpoints, not just to appease some political or social agenda, but at the least to make yourself a better human being.

I posted this video because she isn't some "stupid whore" with poorly researched opinions that serve to put down and demonise men; but because it's interesting to see opinions from a different angle. Anita came to DICE and gave a talk to the studio about things we could do as an industry to improve how women perceive themselves in games, how we can get more women to play and enjoy games. believe it or not she enjoys video games, she really cares. her problem is that when we say "oh but it's always been like that" or " but everyone else does it" then we are part of a larger problem. Even if you go for the wallet then creating games that are more open for all ages and genders is going to bring you bigger profits.

Her kickstarter asked for $6,000 to create a more professional set of videos that could be used in classrooms (for free, mind you), as well as addressing a problem that nobody was actively speaking about. People felt incredibly strongly and gave her more money. She has spent her time travelling to studios and campuses giving lectures and taking questions, gathering research etc.

I don't remember seeing a single fucking word said about Double Fine getting massively overfunded to create a 2d adventure game. Hey fatso, where's my game, it;s been 6 months you lazy piece of shit. I bet he just took the money and ran! What a con artist!

Like campaign junkie said, I thought we were better than this, I thought being in the industry we would see exactly the kind of shit that happens on a day to day basis. Marketing and demographics over-rule common sense and morals, and those demographics aren't even accurate. Just because YOU think white males aged 20 make up 90% of the people playing games, and that those kids only like shooting arabs, doesn't make it true.

Personally I am getting tired of video games, I don't want fucking action shoved down my throat every second of every hour. I want good games that feature stories, arcs, progression. I want to feel that same "wow" I feel when I put down a good book, or finish watching a great movie. Just sitting with the status quo gets us shit like lollipop Chainsaw, and Hitman (recognisable by her small tits lol get it because she has small tits and she must be killed lmao!).

TL;DR for dux and sentura: fuck you lmao

[Rick_D]

When the straight white men of MapCore unite to talk about how sexism / homophobia / racism isn't real and isn't worth talking about, especially in the game industry, you're all sending a message to other MapCore community members -- don't post, don't participate, your feelings aren't valid.

I think that's okay in EOT because that's the special space for it; I avoid EOT and I'm fine with it.

But if you do it out here, in public, keep in mind that people are going to see this, and you're making someone like me feel less welcome here. What, so I'm going to have to start avoiding the "Gaming Discussion" forums too? I wonder how the women of MapCore feel?

I'm not saying "censor" your sexist opinions; feel as sexist as you want. But just know that there's a chilling effect on others you're intimidating with that attitude. A consequence. And really, you end up looking tactless.

Don't worry, no one is going to speak-up and complain because they feel intimidated. They'll just leave.

I'm not sure your post is for real because it sounds like straight copypasta from a feminist blog.

But since this isn't EOT i'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

First off i think it's presumtuous that "straight white males" arn't supposed to express an opinion on racism, homophobia etc. that doesn't comply 100% withyour own. People are individuals no matter their skin color or sexual orientation and everybody has the freedom to express an opinion. It has no bearing on the validity or invalidity of an opinion.

The next thing is you put things in peoples mouth or make wild assumptions about everyone. Please point me to "sexism / homophobia / racism isn't real" comments in this thread. I think it's very real which makes it the more dubious that she spents 160k$ on badly researched videos about a pretty trivial subject in the grand scheme of things and still keeps asking for donations mind you. Ther's 1000x more sexism in the comment sections about her stuff then in the video games she talks about. And those arn't even remotely close to the worst abuse that women and homosexuals can experience irl. But hey who gives a shit about setting priorities, right?

Then what really irks me is how arbitrary the word sexism gets thrown around as a knockout argument, completely warping the meaning of it in the process just to make other peole look bad. Instead of attacking users why not make a constructive post about why you think she's right with all her accusations and assumptions? Then we can discuss the validity of it in an equaly constructive manner.

Some valid points, but what the fuck can you do with $160,000. I can't even buy a good yacht with that kind of money.

[Vilham]

Like campaign junkie said, I thought we were better than this, I thought being in the industry we would see exactly the kind of shit that happens on a day to day basis. Marketing and demographics over-rule common sense and morals, and those demographics aren't even accurate. Just because YOU think white males aged 20 make up 90% of the people playing games, and that those kids only like shooting arabs, doesn't make it true.

Personally I am getting tired of video games, I don't want fucking action shoved down my throat every second of every hour. I want good games that feature stories, arcs, progression. I want to feel that same "wow" I feel when I put down a good book, or finish watching a great movie. Just sitting with the status quo gets us shit like lollipop Chainsaw, and Hitman (recognisable by her small tits lol get it because she has small tits and she must be killed lmao!).

TL;DR for dux and sentura: fuck you lmao

When have you ever heard from someone in the industry that 90% of gamers are white 20 males. I thought it was pretty common knowledge that the average gamer age is like 33 and that 40% of gamers are women. I have literally never heard someone in the industry claim otherwise. (although those statistics in themselves are worthless as there are demographics for different games (or do we want to generalise gamers as well), just as there is a demographic for barbie dolls and everything else in human existance (people are different, different people like different things)

As to the shooters thing. Try expanding your horizons, there are thousands of games out there that focus on other things. I would say you perceiving only shooters is more your problem of generalising the "industry".

[Steppenwolf]

I thought being in the industry we would see exactly the kind of shit that happens on a day to day basis. Marketing and demographics over-rule common sense and morals, and those demographics aren't even accurate. Just because YOU think white males aged 20 make up 90% of the people playing games, and that those kids only like shooting arabs, doesn't make it true.

Personally I am getting tired of video games, I don't want fucking action shoved down my throat every second of every hour. I want good games that feature stories, arcs, progression. I want to feel that same "wow" I feel when I put down a good book, or finish watching a great movie.

That's the part of her argument that i agree with and from which perspective it should be discussed. It's an creative and buisness issue. I'm getting sick and tired of the same old tropes and stereotypes aswell.

What i don't believe is that anyone sits in a studio and decides "hey lets put this helpless but beautiful princess in the game so we can demean and objectivy women". These decissions are not made with malicious intend. It's purely a lack of creativity and unwillingness to risk new ideas. Ignorance perhaps but that's hardly the same as sexism or misogyny which is implied by Anita and other feminists as the core of the problem.

But then to be fair with some of the filth she gets as response to her work how can she not believe to be surrounded by sexist mysogynist gamers? It's a bit like someone who's clinically paranoid actualy getting stalked.

[D3ads]

Does she get her tits out in part 2?

[Sentura]

apinians

i openly support equality for all, race, gender, sexuality notwithstanding. i think, as someone else mentioned that she should be free to make and post these videos regardless of if her opinion is seen as "counter-sexist". it's fine, i don't mind being labelled whatever because i know it wouldn't be an unanimous decision by everyone on the planet. i think she could do a better job at convincing people why her topic is so important, but that's among my greatest criticisms for her. i think the crux for her videos or her message in general (i guess this is for zealous feminists) should be focusing at putting people in the imposition that women are in. when discussing this subject among women i often hear, "you don't know what it's like". and that's the thing: if i knew what it was like, i would have an easier time grasping what to do about it. it's hard to explain a feel to someone else in words, and in our day and time we have a boon in media (books, films, games) that could allow us to create a scenario where one could make a reader/goer/player be in the imposition that women are in. the message would be better conveyed, and instead of instigating this kind of provocation (i'm speaking purely based on observation here - males in general seem to not take too kindly to how she puts forward her points), you could have people that would push further for equality in vidya games/whatever other medium.

my problem with this kind of feminism lies in (again based on observation) that the people behind feminism seem more focused riling up the audience and causing an "us versus them" separation instead of focusing on pushing forward something worthwhile. i know the series isn't done yet, but i'm hoping we will see more of things done right instead of just her telling us things in the past done wrong. at least in that way, she could inspire future game developers to have a template understanding of how to maturely handle women in video games. doing the "here is a list of things that are wrong" without a comparison for what is right simply becomes a hate speech more than anything else.

i also thought that this was relevant:

Edited March 9, 2013 by Sentura

[Taylor]

The industry likes the statistic that almost half of gamers are female and aged over thirty because it shows a diversity and maturity they would like to be associated with. People on this board presumably realise from their own experience that the audience of core titles is a much younger and male-dominated space.

Anyway, talking about demographics reminded me of a post I was linked to written by Kelly Sue DeConnick in her Reddit AMA. It is, of course, concerning comics but much of it seems to parallel the games industry.

http://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/comments/134f6k/i_am_kelly_sue_deconnick_writer_of_ghost_captain/c7184q1?context=1