Tropes vs Women in Video Games

[syver]

Dismissing someone purely based on things he said in the past is a fallacy too. Personaly i find nothing wrong with his video and his argumentation.

I did not do that. I'm dismissing it based on the criticism written below that paragraph. The reason I mentioned that was to hopefully evoke skepticism to his videos.

I'm sure he made this comparison as a reaction to Anita's view who goes even a step further. She doesn't just compare it with real life but draws wild conclusions about how these fictional stories/characters actualy influence real life (like her assumption that a picture of half naked Bayonetta promotes sexual assault in the subway station where it's displayed). She compares the Damsel with onbejctified women in real life, he compares them with loved ones in real life. If anything both are wrong on this one if what you say is correct.

The Bayonetta example has nothing to do with the damsel in distress trope. It does not invalidate what she said about damsel in distress just because an unrelated example is invalid.

So what is wrong with saving women? And why exactly is the Damsel characterization sexist by default? Something that i'm really struggling with to acknowledge because in my view it doesn't say anything about females in general but just about the individual character that it portrays. It would be different if all female characters in games were damsel's. which is far from truth. To be fair not even Anita says that all Damsels are sexist but then she fails to explain what for example makes Peaches characterization sexist and some other Damsel not.

So for you to agree it takes that virtually every single female character is a damsel in distress? I explained this earlier. It's not that it's sexist in itself. It's because it's done consistently to a degree that makes it a stereotype and offensive. I agree that she should have done a better job explaining the distinction between a sexist damsel and one who's not.

It shows the culture shift at work. Anita goes on and on about these vintage games in her video to say something about the state of culture today. He point's merely out that she didn't research properly for a game that she uses to make her point.

The example is perfectly valid and does demonstrate her point. As I said, just because she "punches" the defeated villain (who is incapacitated falls with his penis on her fist) does not justify it. In the 99% remaining part of the game she is still a trophy without any agency. You can't justify it with just an afterthought.

Not all women are insulted by the games that use the trope. I would argue most not even care but that's just a hunch.

Also he's pointing something out that plays a fundamental role for why the trope is in use, something that Anite doesn't even mention and most likely don't acknowlege because it takes wind out of the sails for her argument that sexist attitudes, patriarchy etc is at the core.

Whether they are insulted (by Peach as a character) or not doesn't have to matter. It's the repercussions (stereotypes -> discrimination) of this that is important and if no one is insulted then that makes her video all the more important. "Also he's pointing something out that plays a fundamental role for why the trope is in use" not sure what you mean here, could you clarify?

Yes you could replace her with a gold chest. Shows how simple the story is and that people really shouldn't interpret too much into it. Also people play Mario because they like to jump around not because they care about the story either way.

If this was an isolated example then I would agree. However, it is consistently used as a plot device for almost every single core Mario game.

Wait did we even watch the same video? Ther's nothing even remotely in his video that reminds me of creationist crap.

He employs the similar rhetoric (mentioned ad hominem, straw man, appealing to emotion etc.)

[Steppenwolf]

This is turning into circular arguments now, everybody pointing at fallacies. Guess we have to agree to disagree.

Still haven't read anything yet that convinces me of her claims to be true. Your (and Anitas) argumentation makes sense under the premises that patriarchic conspiracy is at work, that actual real people have been harmed by these games, that no factors outside sexism/misogony come into question and so on. The evidence presented is thin to non existent, correlations and causations far fetched. It reminds me of people saying "the bible is true because the bible says so". It really follows the same scheme 'Anita is right about these tropes being sexist because in her video she says they are sexist'. I know that are not your words but you repeat her arguments like gospel.

if no one is insulted then that makes her video all the more important.

Anyway, 11 more episodes to come. Thread's gonna be epic

[Puddy]

if we ask the extrapolation-o-tron this thread will be at least 110 pages!

get your popcorn ready guys

Edited March 17, 2013 by Puddy

[Taylor]

Well, next time everyone will wait for thunderf00t and InuitInua to point out any bad evidence and logical fallacies for them to work from. This has been ten pages of people trying to make points through a minefield of linguistic traps while stressing they totally don’t hate women.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Taylor

[syver]

This is turning into circular arguments now, everybody pointing at fallacies. Guess we have to agree to disagree.

Still haven't read anything yet that convinces me of her claims to be true. Your (and Anitas) argumentation makes sense under the premises that patriarchic conspiracy is at work, that actual real people have been harmed by these games, that no factors outside sexism/misogony come into question and so on. The evidence presented is thin to non existent, correlations and causations far fetched. It reminds me of people saying "the bible is true because the bible says so". It really follows the same scheme 'Anita is right about these tropes being sexist because in her video she says they are sexist'. I know that are not your words but you repeat her arguments like gospel.

.

I'm not sure how you expect me to argue for her case without discussing the premises for her statements. What I'm doing here is replying to your criticisms of her arguments in the video. I've replied and explained why I don't think that criticism holds up and thus I think her points remain valid. Some of my replies are observations which are perfectly falsifiable (such as paragraph six; in what degree peach is used as a damsel in distress in core games). It's a bit tiring to then be constantly accused of begging the question and/or parroting her.

The parts about thunderf00t+feminism, bayonetta, creationism are unrelated/unconstructive yes. I too wouldn't mind postponing further discussion until her next video. When is the next part due, anyway?

Edited March 17, 2013 by csyver

[LiVinGHeLL]

I hope you guys put in for my kickstarter video series I am creating. Men in videogames: Where are the fat guys?

My starting goal is $200,000 so i can afford a green cloth and a couple copies of double dragon

[Taylor]

Many fat characters in video games can breathe fire and this could be setting unrealistic expectations.

[Skacky]

It always made me chuckle that all the guys (even the 'kids') in Kingpin are fat dudes.

[⌐■_■]

When the skinny men of MapCore unite to talk about how obesitas isn't real and isn't worth talking about, especially in the game industry, you're all sending a message to other MapCore community members -- don't post, don't participate, your feelings aren't valid.

I think that's okay in EOT because that's the special space for it; I avoid EOT and I'm fine with it.

But if you do it out here, in public, keep in mind that people are going to see this, and you're making someone like me feel less welcome here. What, so I'm going to have to start avoiding the "Gaming Discussion" forums too? I wonder how the fat guys of MapCore feel?

I'm not saying "censor" your opinions; feel as skinny as you want. But just know that there's a chilling effect on others you're intimidating with that attitude. A consequence. And really, you end up looking tactless.

Don't worry, no one is going to speak-up and complain because they feel intimidated. They'll just leave.

[KoKo5oVaR]

When the skinny men of MapCore unite to talk about how obesitas isn't real and isn't worth talking about, especially in the game industry, you're all sending a message to other MapCore community members -- don't post, don't participate, your feelings aren't valid.

I think that's okay in EOT because that's the special space for it; I avoid EOT and I'm fine with it.

But if you do it out here, in public, keep in mind that people are going to see this, and you're making someone like me feel less welcome here. What, so I'm going to have to start avoiding the "Gaming Discussion" forums too? I wonder how the fat guys of MapCore feel?

I'm not saying "censor" your opinions; feel as skinny as you want. But just know that there's a chilling effect on others you're intimidating with that attitude. A consequence. And really, you end up looking tactless.

Don't worry, no one is going to speak-up and complain because they feel intimidated. They'll just leave.

I hope you'll get banned of the game industry business corporations.

[LiVinGHeLL]

When the skinny men of MapCore unite to talk about how obesitas isn't real and isn't worth talking about, especially in the game industry, you're all sending a message to other MapCore community members -- don't post, don't participate, your feelings aren't valid.

I think that's okay in EOT because that's the special space for it; I avoid EOT and I'm fine with it.

But if you do it out here, in public, keep in mind that people are going to see this, and you're making someone like me feel less welcome here. What, so I'm going to have to start avoiding the "Gaming Discussion" forums too? I wonder how the fat guys of MapCore feel?

I'm not saying "censor" your opinions; feel as skinny as you want. But just know that there's a chilling effect on others you're intimidating with that attitude. A consequence. And really, you end up looking tactless.

Don't worry, no one is going to speak-up and complain because they feel intimidated. They'll just leave.

I guess you missed the point. You are just repeating the same thing you posted earlier in the thread. I think you feel more threatened by the fact that you backed a person who you are now seeing has no validity. I think it's pretty sad that you must avoid anywhere or anyone that disagrees with you. I guess if you want to live in a box with your opinions echoing all around you, that's your prerogative.

I have to say though, that your sentence about how no one else that agrees with you will speak up because my text is so intimidating, is some serious bullshit. I think its hilariously ironic that you would label all those people to be exactly like you (I guess that calls back to the echo chamber). It's also just covering yourself if no one else chimes in with your same point of view.

This thread is the plague

[Minos]

I think this video invalidates any claims that the princess is always the victim... hope everyone is happy now and we can all go home.

[Jetsetlemming]

I, for one, and very impressed with csyver's patience. I got sick of the ridiculous goalpost shifting in this thread and decided to go learn something practical like minecraft engineering instead.

[dkm]

I don't want to reignite the whole thing, but when I see this kind of video made BY a game developer, I can't help but think that MAYBE the industry as a whole needs to grow up... Joke or no joke, that was horrible...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm5N4yjWFWs

[Chimeray]

Was just about to post in the payday thread as well. A bit tasteless imo... Could've been a whole lot worse though, I give em that

Edited March 25, 2013 by Chimeray