Thief 4

[Steppenwolf]

I recall the recent Splinter Cell said it would support both stealth and a shooter approach because blah blah modern audiences. How did that turn out?

 

Yea i don't think it really works well to try and make a game for different playstyles. The core gameplay will always suffer from the compromises.

I had this same experience when i played Dishonored. As a player when you have strong offensive capabilities at your disposal just like that you are always tempted to use them. It's like using a cheat or performance enhancing drugs to get results quicker. You have success quickly but ultimately leaves you feel empty with no sense of having achieved anything.

In Dishonored i played through half the game with the weapons that were at my disposal before i realised that i don't actualy like to play it like that. Then i started fresh with the goal to play completely stealthy. But it didn't work for me because: i'm a casual gamer. I rarely replay games these days because i have better things to do with my time. Playing through the same sections again felt like a waste of time just for the sake of the goal that i set myself. And it also felt silly because ther's no sense of achievment when i do it just for myself anyway. So i would have had a better experience with the game if it was a proper stealth game from the start. to finish.

[Skacky]

If you make your game to cater to everyone rather than making it so you find it interesting and enjoyable, then you end up pleasing no one. Eidos Montreal got lucky with DX:HR since Deus Ex is very sandboxy and is clearly not as strict as Thief, but it's another story entirely with this reboot since they seem to have utterly butchered the core gameplay.

 

I've written this elsewhere but I'm going to write this again: the old-time fans of the franchise and even some new blood who arrived recently think this game is an abomination because it betrays what Thief was about; a methodical stealth game set in a very original setting with great lore, and most of all with arguably the best written protagonist in a video game. The profane audience for the most part think this game is nothing more than an egdy Dishonored rip-off, and you can't blame them since the game looks almost exactly like Dishonored. I'd be extremely surprised if this game was successful, but I highly doubt it. The fans of the franchise will most likely not buy it (and that's a lot of customers, believe me) and new players will, as I said, think this is an edgy Dishonored clone.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Skacky

[Steppenwolf]

I haven't played much of DX:HR to be honest because i have the same problem with this game that i had with Dishonored. It's just too easy and tempting to just gun down all the enemies. And that to me takes the fun out of what makes a good stealth game. You should be really afraid of getting caught by the NPC's. The old Deus Ex solved this much better. It still gave you the option to play it as fps but if you chose that path you started with really crappy weapons and skills. Remember how much the scope of the sniper rifle was shaking in the beginning of the game. So the game presented itself as a proper stealth game that invited players to actualy give the stealth gameplay a chance and learn to like it as a way that's equaly as effective and actualy more fun.

In these new games playing stealthy feels like chopping ones leg off to be able to compete in the special olympics.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Steppenwolf

[Zyn]

http://community.eidosmontreal.com/blogs/Take-5-QA-4

 

 

Daniel: I am happy to announce we no longer have an XP system in Thief.

Nic: Yeah, it is not there anymore.

Why was it removed?

Nic: At first, we wanted to outline the progression of the player with XP, but it was reducing our motivation to steal. The main goal of a thief should be to gain loot. Garrett is already the Master Thief, so we saw no need to have XP as a core mechanic.

 

Yaaay. Maybe now we can actually call it a Thief game!

[Erratic]

Narrative Focus

Story Driven

No gameplay

 

Shouldn't RPS be eating this up? Wait it's by a big publisher. Guess it's more like Thief 4 out of 10 then.

[Skacky]

RPS already dislike this game quite a bit... actually, pretty much everyone does, and ditching XP isn't going to change anything. What I find funny is that they still have major crashes and bugs 4 months before the game is released, and they decided to remove something that was set in stone for a while, with most probably part of the core gameplay built upon it. yeeeeh.

[Puddy]

Man, all of the fuzz with this game can't be good PR. :/

I'm not too upset personally, since I never played the old Thief games. And I have a massive boner for Dishonored instead.

[Nysuatro]

Man, all of the fuzz with this game can't be good PR. :/

I'm not too upset personally, since I never played the old Thief games. And I have a massive boner for Dishonored instead.

 

 Imagine working on the game and reading all these bad negative comments ...

[Skacky]

I'm not too upset personally, since I never played the old Thief games. And I have a massive boner for Dishonored instead.

 

You should play them. What's fascinating about them is that once you play them, every other game will seem dull.

 

EDIT: I'm sure you're doing good work on it Nysuatro (aren't you working in the visuals department?), but you gotta admit your leads don't know jack shit what they're doing.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Skacky

[Thrik]

Maybe the biggest problem here was calling the game Thief, because it really doesn't look bad at all but all the baggage that comes with such a well-loved IP is causing a lot of stir. That's the problem with trying to reboot or revive old franchises — sometimes more trouble than it's worth. I would be interested to know how many people saying so much negative stuff about it have had any hands-on experience with it though, because unless I'm missing something not very much of the game has even been shown?

 

I dunno, I'm kind of tired of hearing the complaints at this point and just want to see what the end result is like. Who knows, maybe it'll be an amazing game despite upsetting the old fans (in the same way DX:HR upset some Deus Ex fans but was legitimately incredible). At this point it seems like people are getting crazily excited by just words and tiny gameplay clips. It's the typical 'angry old fan bandwagon' type situation where people are just excessively hating for the sake of it IMO.

[Sentura]

I haven't played much of DX:HR to be honest because i have the same problem with this game that i had with Dishonored. It's just too easy and tempting to just gun down all the enemies. And that to me takes the fun out of what makes a good stealth game. You should be really afraid of getting caught by the NPC's. The old Deus Ex solved this much better. It still gave you the option to play it as fps but if you chose that path you started with really crappy weapons and skills. Remember how much the scope of the sniper rifle was shaking in the beginning of the game. So the game presented itself as a proper stealth game that invited players to actualy give the stealth gameplay a chance and learn to like it as a way that's equaly as effective and actualy more fun.

In these new games playing stealthy feels like chopping ones leg off to be able to compete in the special olympics.

 

If you feel like you want to gun down all enemies, then why don't you? I mean if you're not enjoying the stealth aspects of the game then there's no shame in that.

 

I don't think it's a question of "getting lucky" to cater for different playstyles, rather I think it's just a question of how the levels are designed. Most people would probably make paths that differ, while having different connection points between them so that players could always switch between the paths whenever they feel like it, and it's not a bad approach. A full sandbox experience on the other hand will give players the ultimate freedom to follow their own whim. Granted, a full sandbox approach is more difficult to engineer into existence, but if done well it can definitely elevate the game to a new level. More than anything however, the level design has to support the game design and the mechanics - if there's a mismatch there, then the game will suffer. There's nothing worse than using rocket launchers in tight spaces where the explosions kill you off too.

 

I urge you to check this paper out made specifically on this kind of design, because it is super insightful on how to make the whole thing come together: http://www.dcdr.dk/dk/materiale/dokumenter/phd-afhandling-alessandro-canossa.pdf

[-HP-]

 

Man, all of the fuzz with this game can't be good PR. :/

I'm not too upset personally, since I never played the old Thief games. And I have a massive boner for Dishonored instead.

 

 Imagine working on the game and reading all these bad negative comments ...

 

 

It will happen with every single game you'll work on, don't sweat it.

[KoKo5oVaR]

 

Man, all of the fuzz with this game can't be good PR. :/

I'm not too upset personally, since I never played the old Thief games. And I have a massive boner for Dishonored instead.

 

 Imagine working on the game and reading all these bad negative comments ...

 

 

Man i worked on rome2 ... go read the comments, it can't be any worse if that helps. People are expecting a LOOOT of things from legendary licenses. Even if the game is better than the previous one, they will be disapointed. Actually i think they just make up expectations

[Steppenwolf]

If you feel like you want to gun down all enemies, then why don't you? I mean if you're not enjoying the stealth aspects of the game then there's no shame in that.

 

I think you misunderstood. My critique is that the option to just gun down all enemies takes the fun out of the stealth gameplay.

Not because gunning down is more fun. To the contrary. It's just that playing stealthy is much more fun when getting caught actualy has consequences. In the old Thief games my adrenaline was pumping and i was on the edge. I remember freaking out when i heard a noise only then to realize it was some guy sleeping in his bed. Such feelings can't be created in a game where getting caught simply means "ok no biggie i will just gun down these NPC's then and move on".

Edited October 17, 2013 by Steppenwolf

[Thrik]

Does that not change with difficulty Steppenwolf? I've never played DX:HR on hard because I have lots of discipline when playing stealth games and never resort to shooting everyone up. With Metal Gear Solid it's quite possible to go into 'gun everyone down' mode on normal difficulties, but if you go up to the hard or extreme difficulties you'd better get your ass hidden if enemies spot you (also they can see and hear much more realistically to the point of it being hilariously hard).

 

Stealth games are the one genre where difficulty levels truly transform the game. I've played a number of them now where using the higher difficulties doesn't add more hit points to enemies, but instead makes their AI much better and gives you less room to be lazy. I think anyone truly dedicated to their stealth should be hitting this shit on the hardest difficulty.