fuck yeah ken you tell em !

[Jetsetlemming]

hey nobody said consoles suck or japanese people didnt bring anything to the table in that ken levine article !

1) he just says: "i love the pc and here is why:"

2) and than i was like: shit yeah man i agree with that !

3)*post of mapcore to share the love*

PS: mario and zelda respectively birthed the "jump and run" and "action adventure" genres as we know them today ! creating a genre is pretty much the holy grail of innovation if you ask me !

I can think of games that predate both Mario and Zelda though, like Pitfall for platforming. Sure, there's a big difference in quality going from Pitfall to Mario, similar to the gap between Robotron and Smash TV, but that doesn't mean Smash TV invented the twin stick shooter.

Originally I was gonna use Commander Keen to make this point but discovered on wiki that Command Keen episode 1 actually came out five years after Super Mario Bros

[Campaignjunkie]

It doesn't matter who does things first -- it only matters who does things the best.

That said -- I think Ken is right. PC is a democratic platform. No publisher would ever green-light the Super Columbine game because it's not marketable and it's so controversial (and it's really poorly designed to boot / it's sooo ugly) -- but do you agree that people should be allowed to make controversial things, and distribute them freely, even if they suck?

That's PC. No dev-kit, no license, no cert, no demands -- just games. And those games are so much cheaper too...

[Jetsetlemming]

I wouldn't even call it democratic, more like anarchy

[FrieChamp]

hey nobody said consoles suck or japanese people didnt bring anything to the table in that ken levine article !

1) he just says: "i love the pc and here is why:"

2) and than i was like: shit yeah man i agree with that !

3)*post of mapcore to share the love*

PS: mario and zelda respectively birthed the "jump and run" and "action adventure" genres as we know them today ! creating a genre is pretty much the holy grail of innovation if you ask me !

I can think of games that predate both Mario and Zelda though, like Pitfall for platforming. Sure, there's a big difference in quality going from Pitfall to Mario, similar to the gap between Robotron and Smash TV, but that doesn't mean Smash TV invented the twin stick shooter.

Originally I was gonna use Commander Keen to make this point but discovered on wiki that Command Keen episode 1 actually came out five years after Super Mario Bros

Commander Keen resulted from ID Software's failed attempt to port Super Mario to PC. Well, technically they succeeded but Nintendo didn't see any merit in weakening their own platform by making their hit title available on the PC. See the irony in this?

[-HP-]

hey nobody said consoles suck or japanese people didnt bring anything to the table in that ken levine article !

1) he just says: "i love the pc and here is why:"

2) and than i was like: shit yeah man i agree with that !

3)*post of mapcore to share the love*

PS: mario and zelda respectively birthed the "jump and run" and "action adventure" genres as we know them today ! creating a genre is pretty much the holy grail of innovation if you ask me !

I can think of games that predate both Mario and Zelda though, like Pitfall for platforming. Sure, there's a big difference in quality going from Pitfall to Mario, similar to the gap between Robotron and Smash TV, but that doesn't mean Smash TV invented the twin stick shooter.

Originally I was gonna use Commander Keen to make this point but discovered on wiki that Command Keen episode 1 actually came out five years after Super Mario Bros

Commander Keen resulted from ID Software's failed attempt to port Super Mario to PC. Well, technically they succeeded but Nintendo didn't see any merit in weakening their own platform by making their hit title available on the PC. See the irony in this?

Yep, someone here knows his shit!

They did tried to contact Nintendo back in the days, and Nintendo answered with a big no. So they went forward and created their own stuff, starting with Commander Keen.

[Taylor]

hey nobody said consoles suck or japanese people didnt bring anything to the table in that ken levine article !

Well, no. Not directly.

I can think of games that predate both Mario and Zelda though, like Pitfall for platforming. Sure, there's a big difference in quality going from Pitfall to Mario, similar to the gap between Robotron and Smash TV, but that doesn't mean Smash TV invented the twin stick shooter.

Originally I was gonna use Commander Keen to make this point but discovered on wiki that Command Keen episode 1 actually came out five years after Super Mario Bros

You're right that Super Mario Bros didn't create the platformer genre, but innovation isn't restricted to birthing genres. For some of the games I listed maybe the devil is in the details, but it's certainly there. Pitfall is a rather weird example because it's very primitive compared to Super Mario Bros anyway. Donkey Kong, which predates Pitfall, would perhaps be a better reference but is strictly speaking a Mario game anyway.

Growing when collecting mushrooms for a 2-hit health system, having different abilities based on your size, interacting with blocks by hitting them (strictly speaking this was first in the arcade game nobody has ever seen), being able to run to create different jumps, defeating enemies by jumping on them, and it's level design in general are simple examples off the top of my head. There would be more if this was expanded to Super Mario World where he gained more objects to interact with, suits to wear and the ability to hold stuff (leading to more combinations). Either way,the Mario series contains a lot of ideas.

[Erratic]

Some serious sadness in this thread.

When someones gotta lay down why Zelda or Mario is relevant, some shits wrong. Like, gamastura comments section shits wrong.

[Jetsetlemming]

Some serious sadness in this thread.

When someones gotta lay down why Zelda or Mario is relevant, some shits wrong. Like, gamastura comments section shits wrong.

There's differences between relevant, innovative, and birthing a genre.

I would argue that Mario 64 and Zelda OoT are innovative. But not the firsts in their respective series.

[twiz]

Wait, how did this conversation turn from the current state of the industry in relation to budding developers/modders for PC and/or console to the invention/innovation/birthing/relevance of a genre like 25 years ago?

From this passing comment in the article?

The PC is the place where great game developers are born, even—and maybe especially—where great console game developers are born.

Which is immediately followed by:

Halo, Mass Effect, Call of Duty…PC developers first.

I don't see any reference to Zelda, Mario, or Nintendo at all.

I think it's safe to say that the relationship between PC and console game developers in 1985 isn't really comparable with the developers today.

[Sentura]

point is, you use a computer even to develop console games. or said in another way, a console is just a standardized computer made so it's easier to develop for the same system (+marketing).

[Taylor]

So not only is the PC the place where great innovative developers are born, it's also the sole distinguishable development platform. Well, blow me tight. Ken's statement is both undisputedly correct and undisputedly redundant; the only place where something happens is the best at making it happen!

[Warby]

the only place where something happens is the best at making it happen!

löl

i cant argue with that statement