fuck yeah ken you tell em !

[Taylor]

I can see already this is going to end with me being required to actually list extensively examples of what Japanese have innovated and brought to gaming in terms of mechanics, influences, genres, control schemes, hardware, etc. While other posters, united under ignorant, arrogant and/or nationalist hubris, consider nonsensical one-line straw-man arguments to be strong debate and yowl and jeer in the background.

It’s a bit like posting on a board about comic books trying to argue, to a crowd of DC readers, that Marvel has perhaps had some influence on the industry and trends. But encountering resistance by people who have never read a comic book by them before, and who stare back quizzically when you lists apparently-popular superheroes.

[dux]

Don't forget the thin effeminate men with hair that looks like they've been electrocuted

[Taylor]

Perhaps use a sarcastic example that is about innovation rather than aesthetics, as that is the actual topic, and try again. An example might be a recurring gameplay feature you dislike, though this would require you to have some basic knowledge of the source material.

[Thrik]

Weird, I always thought of the Japanese as pretty much the origin of most things that make good games today. The influence that even single series like Mario and Zelda have had is immeasurable. Anyway, gaming history is too vast and complicated to attribute specific things to any one region — the UK alone is a massive player thanks to Grand Theft Auto's innovation, for example.

I do think Ken's argument is fairly weak as the openness of consoles is very rapidly catching up with the PC, to the point where if it were any more open there'd be too much shit to sift through. Getting a console game published through the online stores isn't that hard for any team or individual producing quality games, and you can get development tools relatively easily — neither of which were the case in the past. If you want to make and release stuff on PS3 or 360 it's not that different to doing the same on the PC.

I do see his point that a lot of developers were born on the PC and indeed most developers still use PCs for their actual work, but I can't imagine many new developers are going to make their mark on the PC seeing as its market doesn't tend to result in many hits (even if a very small number of PC games like Minecraft are spectacularly successful). He's using examples that are really from a bygone era, hence why pretty much all of them are now primarily console developers and there're very few PC-orientated developers nowadays.

[FrieChamp]

I'm no expert on games from Japan, but I think Taylor has a point. Wanna know why? One word: Nintendo. I don't even think most of us tried to belittle the efforts by console game developers, but with all the love that consoles get lately and the impression that the PC is treated like the older, retarded stepchild of the games business, any big name speaking out for the platform is appreciated. Especially around here, where most folks started out with games development on the PC or still simply prefer a PC release over the console equivalent.

I do think Ken's argument is fairly weak as the openness of consoles is very rapidly catching up with the PC, to the point where if it were any more open there'd be too much shit to sift through. Getting a console game published through the online stores isn't that hard for any team or individual producing quality games, and you can get development tools relatively easily — neither of which were the case in the past. If you want to make and release stuff on PS3 or 360 it's not that different to doing the same on the PC.

I disagree. Unless it's XBOX Live Indie, which doesn't have the right distribution model for high quality games, getting your game out on the PC is cheaper and a lot faster. Actually, scrap that, it is faster than XBLI, too. In fact I can upload my game to my website right now and it won't even have to go through a peer review process.

[Thrik]

Well, when I say releasing I do mean through some kind of distribution model that hosts it, markets it, etc. On the 360 that'd be LIVE, on the PS3 that'd be PSN, and on the PC that'd primarily be Steam. Naturally you can always release it yourself through your own website or whatever, but the odds of it actually taking off are a million to one unless you've already got a dedicated base (which will still only get you so far). Even with PC distribution models like Steam, the vast majority of small-scale releases seem to flop — including ones close to home such as Zero Gear.

I'm not going to assert anything as I don't have the numbers, but I'd imagine if you were to release an indie game on the PC and on consoles the console releases would far outsell the PC version. Out of curiosity, what indie PC successes have there been in recent times beyond Minecraft?

[FrieChamp]

By XBOX Live you mean "Arcade" right? XBLA uses a porfolio management approach, so your title first needs to be greenlit to even get the chance to be on the platform. Then you need to make sure you can check off all the criteria that your game needs to satisfy to pass the certification process. I heard numbers as high as 30.000 British Pounds that you can calculate for the testing etc. If you make it, there are two new XBLA releases each week. Nearly half of all XBLA titles sell less than 25000 copies. If you're on the dashboard you do great, if you're not well then you don't. PSN sales are waaaaay less, not even talking about WiiWare. So obviously this is still better than HAVING TO ink a deal with a publisher like back in the days, but it isn't all unicorns and rainbows for digital distribution on consoles, I just wanted to point that out.

I'm not going to assert anything as I don't have the numbers, but I'd imagine if you were to release an indie game on the PC and on consoles the console releases would far outsell the PC version. Out of curiosity, what indie PC successes have there been in recent times beyond Minecraft?

Define "success". To me a success is a break-even plus x, if you talk "Minecraft 4 millions on the bank before beta" kind of success I won't be able to give you many examples (the closest thing would probably be Garry's mod) but in turn let me ask you which indie game has mirrored this level of success on consoles?

[Thrik]

Oh absolutely, I'm not saying console distribution is some kind of holy grail or anything. I was more pointing out that whereas consoles used to be a completely closed arena and you needed to be on the PC if you wanted to get something out as an individual or a small team, now it's very much possible on consoles. It won't necessarily be any more fruitful on consoles (although I still think it's likely console sales are likely to do better), but the opportunities are all there. The PC is no longer the exclusive domain of budding developers.

I can't think of any Minecraft-type successes because that's on a level all of its own, having literally become a phenomenon. But I would imagine things like Braid, Limbo, Flower, and Fat Princess have done well on consoles but would have had trouble getting far on the PC. My gut feeling, anyway.

Really I love both the PC and consoles and both have opportunities. I just found Ken's implication that the PC was the only place breeding up-and-coming developers a bit of an outdated notion.

[dux]

Perhaps use a sarcastic example that is about innovation rather than aesthetics, as that is the actual topic, and try again. An example might be a recurring gameplay feature you dislike, though this would require you to have some basic knowledge of the source material.

Less serious face, taylor. Come on, you can manage at least once. I even added the spinning eyes to emphasise I was being a plonker on purpose.

[Taylor]

I knew you were joking, that’s why I deconstructed the context.

I interpreted the emoticon entirely the opposite way though.

Weird, I always thought of the Japanese as pretty much the origin of most things that make good games today. The influence that even single series like Mario and Zelda have had is immeasurable. Anyway, gaming history is too vast and complicated to attribute specific things to any one region — the UK alone is a massive player thanks to Grand Theft Auto's innovation, for example.

Zelda and Mario are two. But let’s not forget the influence of Super Metroid, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, Sonic, Jet Set Radio, Streets of Rage, Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, Guilty Gear, Metal Gear Solid, Outrun, Fire Emblem, Herzog Zwei, Gun Valkyrie, Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, Super Mario Kart, and so on. There is no way anyone who knows their history can discredit consoles and/or the Japanese of innovation, and the idea that this is all ‘relatively safe to ignore’ or from ‘a few standouts’ is just insultingly wrong.

The Japanese were just a quick example I thought would just prove a point. There are also plenty of western console games showing innovation, as well as a few decades worth of arcade games that were inspirations, and roots, to so much.

Anyway, the discussion between yourselves (Thirk/Frie) is all I wanted to see voiced.

[Jetsetlemming]

I knew you were joking, that’s why I deconstructed the context.

I interpreted the emoticon entirely the opposite way though.

Weird, I always thought of the Japanese as pretty much the origin of most things that make good games today. The influence that even single series like Mario and Zelda have had is immeasurable. Anyway, gaming history is too vast and complicated to attribute specific things to any one region — the UK alone is a massive player thanks to Grand Theft Auto's innovation, for example.

Zelda and Mario are two. But let’s not forget the influence of Super Metroid, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, Sonic, Jet Set Radio, Streets of Rage, Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, Guilty Gear, Metal Gear Solid, Outrun, Fire Emblem, Herzog Zwei, Gun Valkyrie, Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, Super Mario Kart, and so on. There is no way anyone who knows their history can discredit consoles and/or the Japanese of innovation, and the idea that this is all ‘relatively safe to ignore’ or from ‘a few standouts’ is just insultingly wrong.

The Japanese were just a quick example I thought would just prove a point. There are also plenty of western console games showing innovation, as well as a few decades worth of arcade games that were inspirations, and roots, to so much.

Anyway, the discussion between yourselves (Thirk/Frie) is all I wanted to see voiced.

I wasn't being serious. Though I haven't played a Japanese game and really gotten into it in a really super long time. Maybe the Trauma Center series. I've got Trauma Team on the Wii and play a few missions every once in a while, although the super lame additional "styles" they introduced with the House style doctor and the crime scene investigator suck. YET ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF TERRIBLE JAPANESE "INNOVATION"

Edit: By the way, neither Mario nor Zelda are innovative.

[zaphod]

Getting a console game published through the online stores isn't that hard for any team or individual producing quality games

It is definitely difficult enough to cull out a huge segment of potential developers. The only online store that you might be able to make the case for being pretty open is XBLIG (or whatever it is called) which is still pretty limited in terms of what you can charge or do with the game system.

I think a good standard for "will a lot of crazy and sometimes legendary stuff get made by unknowns for this platform" is wether or not a high-school developer can get a game onto it. Someone without a company, resources, or business sense but with a lot of time and passion. I don't really feel like that fits consoles right now, there are too many hurdles for that type of developer to get something on PSN, XBLA or Wii Ware. There could be an argument that XBLIG is a place for exactly that kind of developer, but I don't know that much about it.

I do know though that the PC / Web and Apple App Store are bursting at the seams with those kinds of developers.

[Taylor]

I wasn't being serious. Though I haven't played a Japanese game and really gotten into it in a really super long time. Maybe the Trauma Center series. I've got Trauma Team on the Wii and play a few missions every once in a while, although the super lame additional "styles" they introduced with the House style doctor and the crime scene investigator suck. YET ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF TERRIBLE JAPANESE "INNOVATION"

Edit: By the way, neither Mario nor Zelda are innovative.

I think what you said was more than slightly representative of what you felt.

Zelda and Mario both brought a lot of firsts to their respective genres.

[Jetsetlemming]

I think what you said was more than slightly representative of what you felt.

Zelda and Mario both brought a lot of firsts to their respective genres.

For reals: I legit respect some Japanese developers, probably Kojima at the forefront of that, as well as the guy that directed Resident Evil 4 (I can't remember his name right now). I don't hold their Japanese-ness against them. But in general the Japanese market rarely produces something that really gets me excited, compared to some of the indie stuff I've seen lately, or eastern European games.

What firsts did Mario and Zelda bring to platforming and top-down action games?

[Warby]

hey nobody said consoles suck or japanese people didnt bring anything to the table in that ken levine article !

1) he just says: "i love the pc and here is why:"

2) and than i was like: shit yeah man i agree with that !

3)*post of mapcore to share the love*

PS: mario and zelda respectively birthed the "jump and run" and "action adventure" genres as we know them today ! creating a genre is pretty much the holy grail of innovation if you ask me !