DOTA 2

[Em']

Well, this grand finale was really boring... That meta memepush and those abandon in 15 and 17 minutes were so awfull. Hope they gonna fix the game a bit, for a cashprize of 10M, this was painful to watch...

This year was even worse than split rat doto of Alliance.

 

Any thought guys on this event ?

[tomm]

game is hard.

[Sentura]

I didn't watch it, but wait what, people leaving the finals?

 

I've made some controversial statements about the balance of DOTA 2, but this definitely seems to confirm them. While I have respect for IceFrog as a designer, I do believe he's stuck in his old ways and is unable to take the game to the level it needs to be at. I always thought the general hero aesthetic was off, and with DOTA 2 they had a chance to remake the aesthetic for every hero, making them all fit together in a coherent universe. Instead they opted to just copy paste everything over, which to me speaks leagues about how apprehensive IceFrog is of the DOTA community (especially the purists).

 

I'm going to echo what I've said before - Heroes of Newerth took the direction that DOTA 2 should have taken when it was still in the beta. While the community may be worse, the design is definitely better. I don't always agree with a new hero every week, BUT: It does force the designers to think about the overall balance of the game constantly - whereas in DOTA 2 it has stagnated. As a result I think many of the matches are balanced in a better way, and because of it more fun.

 

DOTA 2 definitely needs some sort of makeover. It needs a design director that is not afraid of taking the game in a more unified and balanced direction, instead of focusing on the infinite tweaking between heroes it has been reduced to now. Rat dota isn't a solution - it's not encouraging good players, because nobody is actually playing the game. It just becomes a lane farming/pushing simulator, which isn't fun to watch, or I imagine, to play. The case prize was probably the only incentive to play in the international for many teams, since it seems more tedious than anything else. DOTA 2 needs some heroes removed or at the very least reworked, and potentially remove certain game mechanics from the game. None that will change the game radically, but just to push the game in a direction where both players and spectators actually start caring for the game.

[Puddy]

This is why I decided that I wasn't going to get involved in DOTA and just stick to Counter-Strike.  Too messy and complicated meta-game which lacks the punch of Counter Strike's round structure.

[PogoP]

I just sit on my ass and play FTL all day. Simple.

[Pampers]

FTL is too random

[PogoP]

Matches my personality! LOL!!             

[2d-chris]

I think its a bit of an overreaction, I enjoyed the games up until the final, I also really enjoyed the games at ESL Frankfurt last month. It's true the final games where really disappointing, but IMO it's no different than any other sport where you can get some really shit games.

 

Lasts years TI was rat DOTA, the Chinese found a way to outplay it, and next year another play style will dominate that.

 

I suppose the only thing I'd prefer to see is more heros being used, than the shuffled 15 or so that get selected and banned every game.

[Em']

I think its a bit of an overreaction, I enjoyed the games up until the final, I also really enjoyed the games at ESL Frankfurt last month. It's true the final games where really disappointing, but IMO it's no different than any other sport where you can get some really shit games.

 

Lasts years TI was rat DOTA, the Chinese found a way to outplay it, and next year another play style will dominate that.

 

I suppose the only thing I'd prefer to see is more heros being used, than the shuffled 15 or so that get selected and banned every game.

 

Yes, there might be a lot of overreaction from community. I think most people are just a bit sad that this early push meta won TI4. Newbee (the winners), started from lower bracket and won all their match with this strat : picking heroes that allow them to end quickly without giving any good and deep entertainment to watchers. Game were usually super short. Also, with this strat they forced all the team to adapt on the fly and mimic this strat : it ended that many teams did "not as good as we could have expected from them" games. Stil, it's a competition, the winners made a really good move for 5M$, but the show was a bit disapointing for viewers.

 

All games were very similar in picks and strats, like Chris said : last year there was more different heroes picks and mostly more exotic picks. A bit less tryhardism too.

Like watching someone beats you in a Fighting-Game with the same move, over and over again : he might win, but you might find he is a total ass-hole.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Em'

[Sentura]

Fighting games unfortunately can't be won as easy - at least not those present at EVO. If every team is forced to adapt the same strategy there's also something wrong with the balance of the game. It can't and shouldn't be rare to outplay a strategy.

[Em']

Fighting games unfortunately can't be won as easy - at least not those present at EVO. If every team is forced to adapt the same strategy there's also something wrong with the balance of the game. It can't and shouldn't be rare to outplay a strategy.

 

Fortunatly, we are speaking at a pro level. E-sport games are often unbalanced with pro games.

When i'm playing with friends or even alone, those strats aren't that easy to execute.

[Sentura]

I don't think that's necessarily correct. I know many games (fighting games especially) are balanced for pro players. I'd imagine many of the MOBA style games would be too. I know HON is, I'd imagine DOTA2 is too. That's why I dare say it's unbalanced when all the pros have to resort to the same strategy.

[2d-chris]

Just seen a bruno stat, there where more 50+ min games in this TI than the last one - sure, the tactic that won was different.

 

This is a recent shift in metagame, do you really expect Valve to change the entire game right before the tournament, the team that won only got through by the skin of their teeth. I have no idea how hard it is to balance a game like this, but even in Starcraft it constantly shifts year to year. I'm not sure a fighting game is fare to compare either, I mean look at how complicated DOTA 2 is in comparison, not to mention the team play aspect of the game design.

 

Everyone was commenting, that the teams hold their strats for the TI, so how on earth would Valve even know about the metagame shift, it's carefully hidden until the tournament. I feel, the fact they managed to counter rat dota (which is far more entertaining to watch) only goes to show how dynamic the game really is. Now the event is over, teams will analyze the play style and counter it, new heros will be picked and who knows, maybe next year we will get boring defensive dota2, which by the way is what Chinese teams used to be known for. Oh how the tides have turned.

[Taylor]

Yeah, it wasn't really rat dota. It was early game comps that came online and did some one-sided fights. And who was picking Brewmaster outside of China a few months ago? It's not exactly League of Legends and it's one strategy for three years that all design conforms to. People just mad Dendi wasn't in the finals.

Modern fighting games made for professional players?

The ones whose new mechanics only activate when you're losing?

[Sentura]

@Taylor: Location tests for USF4

 

 

Just seen a bruno stat, there where more 50+ min games in this TI than the last one - sure, the tactic that won was different.

 

This is a recent shift in metagame, do you really expect Valve to change the entire game right before the tournament, the team that won only got through by the skin of their teeth. I have no idea how hard it is to balance a game like this, but even in Starcraft it constantly shifts year to year. I'm not sure a fighting game is fare to compare either, I mean look at how complicated DOTA 2 is in comparison, not to mention the team play aspect of the game design.

 

Everyone was commenting, that the teams hold their strats for the TI, so how on earth would Valve even know about the metagame shift, it's carefully hidden until the tournament. I feel, the fact they managed to counter rat dota (which is far more entertaining to watch) only goes to show how dynamic the game really is. Now the event is over, teams will analyze the play style and counter it, new heros will be picked and who knows, maybe next year we will get boring defensive dota2, which by the way is what Chinese teams used to be known for. Oh how the tides have turned.

 

I don't know if you were speaking to me, because what I ranted on about was mostly general stuff and not necessarily tied to any tournament. I stand by that there some problems with DOTA 2 in its current iterations. Maybe not big or glaring faults, but even so faults that are skewed and may likely be exploited in future tournaments. I also stand by the opinion that if in a tournament, the only counter to a tactic is mirroring said tactic, then the game is flawed (also a bit more of a general statement).

 

I think the comparison between fighting games and MOBAs isn't that far off. Both have a single character with attributes to balance (abilities, move speed, attack animations, etc.) and both have a comparison for which to graded against. The only difference is that for the most part, match-ups in fighting games are 1 character versus 1 character, whereas in MOBAs it's usually 5v5. There is of course a certain amount of extra complexity in this, but in comparison to how much effort it would already take to take every character and balance them out against every other character, that extra complexity becomes trivial.