Jesse Schell @ DICE 2010

[Skjalg]

I taught a game design class and tried using an achievement-style system for grading / attendance... it failed because that meant I had to keep track of said achievements and it was a total pain the ass. I mean, it sounds great in theory, but without a computer (or an underpaid aide) to track and log everything for you in the real world, then it's really not worth the relatively meager gains.

It would take you about a days work with any programmer tool to make that job take you 5 minutes.

[st0lve]

Wow. Sounds like a sick world IMO. Could be fun, but jesus that would be super annoying. When you are controlled by games\apps, then you have a major malfunction and you need to be unfucked\unplugged. I remember me and my brothers obsession with Tamagochi (sp?), and that was sickening, now imagine that times 1000.

[Taylor]

It would take you about a days work with any programmer tool to make that job take you 5 minutes.

Or you could set up a spreadsheet to do the whole thing in no time. Unless you were using Openoffice Calc, which would corrupt itself after 3 minutes for no reason.

I was talking about this with a friend of mine when walking back from work and he wondered if he could use it to improve his attempts to learn Chinese. Though we agreed any kind of grindable achievements (i.e. learn hanzi) would actually be bad as you would be too eager to move on, forget things and burn out. So it probably is better restricted to daily things, deadlines and chain bonuses. Real life experience points, serious business.

Anyway, I'm sure it would be slightly more cumbersome than imagined as you'd need some systems in place to stop it being exploited. There are already people who try and get xbox achievements by fiddling with their xbox and they are just some meaningless number, not used for discounts and free credit (as in the Dr Pepper and tattoo examples) which would require something very secure - and that is less a reality than putting small chips and wifi in everything. Ex: I would drink Dr. Pepper five days in a row for a bonus (it's lovely after all) but I wouldn't log into my Dr. Pepper account and pass a captcha before I drank it.

[Mazy]

2 years ago, when my achievement points addiction was at its height, I would've loved to have these kinds of scores all over the place in everything.

Nowadays, I really want less of these kinds of points since I know how destructive it can be when you get properly hooked on em, but I also acknowledge that its something that everybody is doing to keep people playing their games.

On a side note, then I think stuff like this makes it even more interesting, and cooler, that Bioware decided to more or less take out the visible XP system from Mass Effect 2. It's something that is being put into almost any genre these days, and its actually pleasantly refreshing to see somebody do an RPG and not go that route, even if experience points are heavily associated with RPG in general.

[Sentura]

my word, the guy is right. i love it. i wish there were more talks like this one...

EDIT: the last part is the best. fucking awesome prediction!

[Hourences]

It is not about the points or achievements, it is about a big brother society driven by social networking and the internet. Everyone knows what you do, when you do it, how you do it, because you deliberatly give away all your privacy. This evolution already started by Twitter, Facebook, and many similar websites. I do not give a single bit in even the slightest possible sense in any possible way what you ate for dinner or when you go on vacation. Really. Yet the majority of people on sites like Facebook for some reason seems to do use it pretty much only for that... The whole big brother idea will eventually become reality, not because of a police state, not because of terrorists, cold war, or whatever else, but because society thinks the internet is to be used to tell others what they are doing.

And from there on, it is a small step to also throw in some points...

Do you want to have a database somewhere on a server that tracks when you go to bed, when you stand, when you sit, when you eat, what you eat, exactly what you buy, when you buy it, where you buy it, how fast you bought it, how you felt after you ate a product, what you watch on tv, hell perhaps even what your opinions are?

Really?

Oh well, on a much more positive note, I am sure the world will go to hell in 2012

[Taylor]

On a side note, then I think stuff like this makes it even more interesting, and cooler, that Bioware decided to more or less take out the visible XP system from Mass Effect 2. It's something that is being put into almost any genre these days, and its actually pleasantly refreshing to see somebody do an RPG and not go that route, even if experience points are heavily associated with RPG in general.

Western RPG's don't really get too much out of experience systems anymore, a point probably marked by Oblivion. When you have so much additional content it's almost impossible to come up with a good leveling curve. Oblivion got around this by having enemies level up when you did, rendering the raw levelling up effectively pointless. It's a shame because one-shotting lowbie areas and running out of high-level areas with your tail between your legs is part of the attraction to a RPG system. But, I guess there's plenty of hardcore dungeon crawlers around if you still want them.

[Campaignjunkie]

I taught a game design class and tried using an achievement-style system for grading / attendance... it failed because that meant I had to keep track of said achievements and it was a total pain the ass. I mean, it sounds great in theory, but without a computer (or an underpaid aide) to track and log everything for you in the real world, then it's really not worth the relatively meager gains.

It would take you about a days work with any programmer tool to make that job take you 5 minutes.

I should've been more clear -- it's a non-digital game design class in the theater department. We play outside.

But anyway, how would you automate stuff like grading a paper? Keeping track of the topics they bring up in discussion? It's really not as easy or intuitive as you'd think. Classroom administration should be the least of any instructor's worries -- though if you're just using canned lesson plans from a textbook, I guess there's no harm. It's like getting a gold star sticker in kindergarten or preschool.

[e-freak]

my main concerns:

* big brother society

** in terms of "what does the state know about me"

** in terms of "what does a company know about me"

** in terms of "what does a random stranger know about me"

* inductive/deductive relation between life and games

I may need to elaborate the last point a little further.

Jesse assumpts that it would be some kind of magic if we'd make everything a big point-score-get-achievements-game. The best fitting example being the teacher giving XP instead of Marks for everything you do in a class. So life becomes more LIKE a game. It's like your life becomes LIKE a movie and your situations become LIKE the stills you saw in the catalogue and your friends become LIKE your social-network-contacts.

that's an induction of games on life but infact games are a deduction of life. Our target should not be to make everything a game, and not everything is entertainment and achievement in life. if we went that far in our society that even the simplest task is not done for ourselves but for the few achievement points and for the little speaker in our ears telling us that we are compared to others, we should go back to the time when we made that decision and do the exact opposite ever after.

life is a circle that has evolved for millions of years and will evolve for another millions (hopefully). if our inner spirits need to be activated with a constant ticking counter and we can't get our asses up on our own, maybe it's time to stop and rethink where we want to be in another 20 years.

[deceiver]

Watching it now, the man talks like he is out of breath half the time lol.

-EDIT-

It definitely is an intriguing picture he's painting of the future. I don't think it'll ever get to that point though. At some point, we'll probably realize at what point it can be destructive and write it off or just plain tiresome. But I think these kinds of "games" and such will only ever stay restricted to the types of media such as Facebook, gaming itself, etc. Some of his examples of "games" in TV, soda cans and such are just contests that have been here since forever. I mean, brushing your teeth for points? I'll give out a big sigh if we ever make it to that point heh. Kinda reminds me of when people thought by now we'd have flying cars and everything. We have a tendancy to exaggerate things =P.

[Sindwiller]

His analyses are both fun and kind of true, however the foresight he did is massively exaggerated. Honestly, once stuff like REM-sleep-ads (or whatever) and eye sensors is introduced, humanity will hit rock bottom.

[Sentura]

His analyses are both fun and kind of true, however the foresight he did is massively exaggerated. Honestly, once stuff like REM-sleep-ads (or whatever) and eye sensors is introduced, humanity will hit rock bottom.

we already have the technology for it, it's just a question whether who wants to volunteer for it..

[Hourences]

At some point, we'll probably realize at what point it can be destructive and write it off or just plain tiresome.

We will? Really? We just spent 5000 years killing each other and doing all kinds of totally weird things in the name of something called "religion" and you truly believe that humanity is smart enough to realise that a world like is portrayed here would be bad for them?

[e-freak]

while your comparsion is failing in a very large scale it is probably true that 90% of mankind is not able to properly reflect on this and use it without further questioning. see how everyone strips they're privacy in today's social networks it seems likely they use this as well.

[Sentura]

that's an induction of games on life but infact games are a deduction of life. Our target should not be to make everything a game, and not everything is entertainment and achievement in life. if we went that far in our society that even the simplest task is not done for ourselves but for the few achievement points and for the little speaker in our ears telling us that we are compared to others, we should go back to the time when we made that decision and do the exact opposite ever after.

life is a circle that has evolved for millions of years and will evolve for another millions (hopefully). if our inner spirits need to be activated with a constant ticking counter and we can't get our asses up on our own, maybe it's time to stop and rethink where we want to be in another 20 years.

actually we threw away evolution when we started using the amount of technology we use today; the way we use medicine and computerization as aides present day makes us less susceptible to evolve further. why? because our bodies have determined that we don't need to. evolution only happens when there's a need for it, and even then, only over a period of thousands of years. without a direction or need, we effectively abolish any and all forms of evolution; and given that all our needs are more and more satisfied by machines, well, go figure.

from the above can then be said: we have 2 different poles, evolution (natural progress) and progress. the more we vest into progress, the less effect evolution will have. if at some point we come to a technological standstill, evolution will take over. having these two poles certifies that as long as there is a need, progress will manifest. there won't ever be a time where progress stops; because it, like entropy, can only expand over time.

my point here is: no matter what happens to us, no matter what we do, progress will continue. there's no reason to dwell on these issues, because the balance will always restore itself in the end. it is only up to us whether we want to be part of that balance, or not.