Finding a mod team worth your while 101

[RD]

Any comments on Terminus Discord? And yes, I am the team leader.

First, write somewhere on the main page in a short way what ur mod is (not only in ur q&a a long paragraph). I had to search pretty long to find out it was multiplayer.

Secondly imvvho the story of a multiplayer mod is irrelevant, nobody cares about story in multiplayer when playing the game. So u gotta bring out ur theme in another way than a 30.000 word essay. Maybe if u manage to get a fanbase u bring out more of the story later on, but for now u need to do it with media

[nervousquirrel]

Mods usually fail at level design. For me, level design is everything. You can have mediocre models and other visuals as long as the playability and level design is great. I don't really care about concept art as it doesn't really tell anything about the mod itself. Weapon models don't really tell much either. The two aforementionned are rather common as the main media content. Mods that have only such content to display will fail.

Both mods fail to show decent level design content. Judging by the previous work of the LDs for the first mod it will fail.

AMEN. That is so true. Some people beleive that "gameplay will carry a mod". Frankly, although I do believe gameplay is the most importaint factor in a mod (the bottom line), level design and quality of work is something that can kill a mod should it not prove to be lacking. I am so glad I'm not the only one who has realized that.

This is the criteria I use to look at mods:

1) Creative Idea/Design

2) Experienced coder in place

3) Mature/focused leadership

4) That Intangilbe 'Thing'...

These 4 things are key! I am a lead for a mod myself, and I've come to learn these things myself. BTW, that " intangible 'thing' " may be the impression the mod gives you through its presentation and cohesive vision. If a mod gives you the feeling that everyone on the team is on the same page, and has direction in their work, then you would do well by joining the team. It is a mark of 1 - 3 in action.

[Mojo]

Sorry for hijacking another thread with this

For example, take a look at this mod

http://www.incorporated-hl2.com/

Will they make it? And why? What's your qualified guesses?

HAHAHA link doesn't work now, though I guess I hear the switched engines

[Belgarion]

Kingdom Lost is still there

[|FRITZ|]

AMEN. That is so true. Some people beleive that "gameplay will carry a mod". Frankly, although I do believe gameplay is the most importaint factor in a mod (the bottom line), level design and quality of work is something that can kill a mod should it not prove to be lacking. I am so glad I'm not the only one who has realized that.

These 4 things are key! I am a lead for a mod myself, and I've come to learn these things myself. BTW, that " intangible 'thing' " may be the impression the mod gives you through its presentation and cohesive vision. If a mod gives you the feeling that everyone on the team is on the same page, and has direction in their work, then you would do well by joining the team. It is a mark of 1 - 3 in action.

Are you making a fy_ mod

Seriously, for all that talk, your mod doesn't reflect a damn thing you said/agreed with above.

[nervousquirrel]

I'm not going to talk too much about my mod on this thread, it's not the focus. However, the site that we have up right now specifically says:

*This site serves as a brief summary and showcase of the project. It does not reflect the scope of our intentions.

The purpose of that site is to have a minimal web presence while we continue with the experiment. Once we begin the actual mod, and have produced enough content to have a significant site, we will impliment a design with more information; one that is more fitting.

[Grin]

Imo most mods today start the whole modding progress the wrong way. Nowadays it goes somewhat like this:

1. Idea

2. Name

3. Start looking for members "ok we have this mod Nemesis Divina/The Estyoporsis/Pressure Force/anything that sounds cool and/or sounds like something which has already been made. Remember to say that all members must be skilled and have previous experience, even if you don't have any previous leadership experience.

4. Make a website with forum

5. Get a shitload of ideas for the mod from current members. Note that at least half of them have to be in the first release "we'll release it when it's done"

6. Notice you have no coder for even remaking the menus.

The end.

Imo you don't need an idea for a mod before you start collecting the few core members to scrap up something that actually works. I wouldn't even start looking an idea before your coder has shown that he can make hand models hit with a wooden stick, even if the hands are just a couple of yellow pipes attached to a brown pipe.

And this means that he has to make it right away. It doesn't help shit if he has been a coder for a mod and done some work there before, it's easy to join a mod and lose interest right away. But when you've done something that works, let's say, a cubicle room with two block modeled characters hitting each other with brown sticks, gaining points per impact, you know that you have a team that can produce something.

Then would be the time for ideas and mod members.

And the most important part: Release when it looks even near the mod you're heading for. It's no shame to release something half done when you're not collecting money for trying it. I'm starting to get real pissed with some of these mods that have been made for the last decade, frankly I don't even believe mods like Nightwatch will ever make it, didn't they already say they're converting for source? It's like "it's almost ready, but not quite" "yeah, coming" "we promise" ........ "hey we've got a new idea, too bad the coder died for a heart attack two decades ago, but you'll definately see this mode later"

Betatesting is also one thing that is too overdone in some mods, teams like to clean all the bugs before release but IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. Any mod you release is going to have them, and most of them are easy to fix in the next release which will also bring some other features for the game.

Duh..text is prolly a bit hard to understand and lacs the red line, but try to get the basic idea.

[nervousquirrel]

*Admin please delete this message, can't delete it on my own for some reason.

[nervousquirrel]

Imo most mods today start the whole modding progress the wrong way. Nowadays it goes somewhat like this:

1. Idea

2. Name

3. Start looking for members "ok we have this mod Nemesis Divina/The Estyoporsis/Pressure Force/anything that sounds cool and/or sounds like something which has already been made. Remember to say that all members must be skilled and have previous experience, even if you don't have any previous leadership experience.

4. Make a website with forum

5. Get a shitload of ideas for the mod from current members. Note that at least half of them have to be in the first release "we'll release it when it's done"

6. Notice you have no coder for even remaking the menus.

The end.

Imo you don't need an idea for a mod before you start collecting the few core members to scrap up something that actually works. I wouldn't even start looking an idea before your coder has shown that he can make hand models hit with a wooden stick, even if the hands are just a couple of yellow pipes attached to a brown pipe.

And this means that he has to make it right away. It doesn't help shit if he has been a coder for a mod and done some work there before, it's easy to join a mod and lose interest right away. But when you've done something that works, let's say, a cubicle room with two block modeled characters hitting each other with brown sticks, gaining points per impact, you know that you have a team that can produce something.

Then would be the time for ideas and mod members.

And the most important part: Release when it looks even near the mod you're heading for. It's no shame to release something half done when you're not collecting money for trying it. I'm starting to get real pissed with some of these mods that have been made for the last decade, frankly I don't even believe mods like Nightwatch will ever make it, didn't they already say they're converting for source? It's like "it's almost ready, but not quite" "yeah, coming" "we promise" ........ "hey we've got a new idea, too bad the coder died for a heart attack two decades ago, but you'll definately see this mode later"

Betatesting is also one thing that is too overdone in some mods, teams like to clean all the bugs before release but IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. Any mod you release is going to have them, and most of them are easy to fix in the next release which will also bring some other features for the game.

Duh..text is prolly a bit hard to understand and lacs the red line, but try to get the basic idea.

Are you saying this from some kind of experiance or just by conjecture?

I agree you need a coder... but it seems you're critisizing steps 1-5, which are logical and mostly necessary. And wouldn't finding members include a coder?

I think the mistake mods tend to make is in rushing things. For instance, mods that get all their members together and make their mod fully public without having a) enough content to do so or b) not having the infrastructure of talent to progress and put forth material. IMO, and this is from experiance, mods should hold tight with their PR/Website untill they have a team that is capable of progress (a coder, level designer, modeler).

Once you have a core team, then you can go fully public with the project (I say fully public because one needs to go somewhat public if they want to find a team. Having something to show prospective members is very importaint to garner interest. Something that would not gain too much attention as would something that is in full swing might.)

The problem lies in mods that build a full site with promises and information to get player's hopes up, without first having the assets and the promise of progress that comes with them.

[Algor]

I think mods fail once they become too ambitious. I often look around at mods for HL2 or something and look at their "features" page and theres maybe 10 pages of features that is often more than most retail games. Then I go to check out their media page, which of course is only weapon renders and theres about 300 weapons. Weapon models do not impress me. Player models do not impress me. Having a game that is playable and fun is far more impressive, even if the content is not mind blowing.

By being too ambitious they create far too many tasks than necessary to make a decent mod that people will want to play. No one wants to play a game that is no fun with 300 different weapon models that offer no other valuable presence to the player.

I say this a lot, and I think it is best to think of small, achievable goals and release the game often with major content updates each time. Using small amounts of content, the team can balance and make sure the game is fun before going on to balance 8 classes per team and 300 weapons available to choose from at the same time. With small goals and frequent releases you can build a fan base of people playing a mod that is playable rather than a web site with weapon renders. If the game is fun they will anticipate future releases and since the releases are often and with new content the fans will be pleased.

[Captain P]

Small, frequent releases would work for multiplayer mods, but don't you think SP mods are a different story?

Betatesting is also one thing that is too overdone in some mods, teams like to clean all the bugs before release but IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. Any mod you release is going to have them, and most of them are easy to fix in the next release which will also bring some other features for the game.

I remember reading Gabe Newell saying he couldn't play Half-Life without thinking "we should've done that different and changed that and that" every now and then. I think it's an important point. I've spent a lot of time fiddling with texture alignment on maps that I never finished because I had never done the layout beforehand and I didn't want to throw away all that detail work I had already done...

Betatesting can not only be problematic because it keeps you from releasing... it can also keep you from finishing important parts.

Man, I love bad textured layout test maps these days! :wink:

[Algor]

Small, frequent releases would work for multiplayer mods, but don't you think SP mods are a different story?

Not at all... no offense, but for example look at Nightwatch, wheres the release? Not saying it's failed, but that it hasn't been released.

I think "Sin Episodes" or whatever it is called is going for the right idea.

[nervousquirrel]

Algor, I get what you're getting at. However, look at NS. They were and still are perhaps the most ambitious out of all the HL/HL2 mods. Their lofty goals when they started are now a playable reality. Granted, I remember it taking them forever to get it out, but so long as one finishes, amibition can be a beautiful thing.

I do agree with you tho, at the point I think you're getting at... which is that some mods over do it. Rather than following the "keep it simple stupid" principle, they strive for more content rather than focusing on making a good mod. For instance, and I'll use your example, some mods feature tons of useless weapons for the sake of having alot of weapons. To add for the sake of adding is usually not a good idea, and these teams will most likely waste their time producing needless content, and subsequently fail. Eiother that or turn out a mod that lacks focus, a mod where all the creative energy has been spread out over 300 weapons and 50 maps to play, rather than honing the mod's design into something worth while.

The On Topic Part: When choosing a mod, make sure to examine stuff like this. If a mod has goals that are pointless or excessive, or ideas that are far too conventional, take that into consideration as an indicator of whether or not you should join the project.

[Grin]

Are you saying this from some kind of experiance or just by conjecture?

I agree you need a coder... but it seems you're critisizing steps 1-5, which are logical and mostly necessary. And wouldn't finding members include a coder?

Thus far I have joined 3 or 4 mods which have all died before the first release, all of them have went through steps 1-5 and died, sometimes missing the website part. And by looking for members I mean looking for members to build a mod with 30 guns and 15 levels right away. Usually there has been at least 2 modelers, 4-5 mappers, a sound artist, an animator and no coder, or some guy who kinda promiced but doesn't even know what mod he promiced to code for.

Steps 1-5 are vital of course, but you should have the coder there to start patching the game up right away. Now it's mods full of artistic talent but no coder, feels like the mod leaders are trying to build a model aeroplane, and they have all the parts but glue is missing.

[Captain P]

Never realised the coder is so important but I think it's true. I don't need no fancy gattling model to test my custom weapon code... using an existing machingun model suffices for the most part. And that's when it works. A gattling model on itself doesn't do nothing but looking good.

I think people have to learn making things work first, before making them look like they work...