Level Design Books

[mjens]

what does the level design process look like?

Here I wrote something about this process.

[Sentura]

Have you read "A theory of fun" by Raph Koster? I'm sure you'd get a kick out of it! Seriously though, no design team on earth would waste a minute of production time in a meeting discussing these things, nor is it going to help the OP find a good book about level-design...

haven't read it, but i'll put it on my to do list.

as for the rest, i think you're right. i think no production team discusses this, but i know the best of them have it imprinted in their minds. also, in keeping with the times, i can mention that the movie avatar directly addresses this point,

when the protagonist (can't remember his name, kill me for not paying attention to details) confesses to the tribe of what he has done as a spy for the military. his change of sides was exactly the same as him "getting" the environment, and it was at that point he essentially became the avatar - not at the end of the movie.

[Rick_D]

basically, you talk a lot of shit for someone who has never had to actually deal with the day to day implementation of gameplay.

[e-freak]

Have you read "A theory of fun" by Raph Koster? I'm sure you'd get a kick out of it! Seriously though, no design team on earth would waste a minute of production time in a meeting discussing these things, nor is it going to help the OP find a good book about level-design...

it's a good read but i found it to be a bit to plain in retroperspective. it's nice if you use it as a guide line and with every topic he brings up look for further second literature (like psychology books, mathematical numeric and stuff).

[2d-chris]

Or open that level editor and get mapping!

[Sentura]

basically, you talk a lot of shit for someone who has never had to actually deal with the day to day implementation of gameplay.

basically you don't know what i'm talking about then =)

not that i'm surprised...

[Erratic]

basically, you talk a lot of shit for someone who has never had to actually deal with the day to day implementation of gameplay.

basically you don't know what i'm talking about then =)

not that i'm surprised...

Prepping for a think tank?

[Sentura]

basically, you talk a lot of shit for someone who has never had to actually deal with the day to day implementation of gameplay.

basically you don't know what i'm talking about then =)

not that i'm surprised...

Prepping for a think tank?

that would be redundant...

[Taylor]

Designers arent smart, programmers are Anyway level design is mostly about understanding "fun" not being smart.

I never said that you can't learn from books, I said you don't have to which is absolutely true.

how exactly would a level designer go about understanding "fun"? fun is such a subjective wording that is impossible to define as just one thing. one person's fun isn't necessarily another person's fun; and because of this, i disagree with your statement.

This is why games are developed with a target audience.

[Rick_D]

this "fun is not measurable" but "immersion is" stuff is bullshit. how do you measure immersion. a 5 year old is immersed like fuck into super mario world, but if you analyse that with a microscope and pick out what you thought (remember psychology is a very personalised subject, you can study it but it also manages to study you) made it immertsive and then apply that to a game for 10 year olds and soon you realise that all you've done is make a shitty game that no-one enjoys because you've aimed it at the wrong audience, learnt the wrong lessons and applied what you know, badly, to a game design you didn't understand.

the best you can do to learn, is to take somethign you enjoy playing, be it fps, rpg, platformer, whatever, get a game that has mod tools, and experiment by doing, learn to use the tools, learn what makes a fun experience for you, get others to play it and learn how they felt about it.

if you open up an editor and say to yourself "i am going to use all my knowledge about every aspect of game design to create the most immersive piece of work i can create" then you will start working in circles, trying to perfect everything as you go and trying to rely on each moment to be a perfect example of the immersion you want to experence (but will never be able to because you are on the other side of the monitor as it were, never able to really experience what you have created through the eyes of someone who has never played it, or seen any part of the development process).

i will not argue that psychology of human beings is not important in level design. i think it is important to understand that peopel do certain things when they are under pressure, to know the kinds of patterns our brains are receptive to, and the type of imagery that we are repelled by. but it is a vitally important step to simply create little arenas of gameplay to find out how to do things, what is actually enjoyable (a far better word that combines both fun and immersion ) and how to guarantee you can recreate certain feelings and experiences in different situations.

saying that fun is not important and that you should focus on trying to be some artsy ponce making braid all over again is a waste of everyones' time and doesn't help the OP who wanted to know what to do next. and frankly there's books out there that don'ty really explain shit. you are better off learnign by doing, getting a job as a junior, and learning from others with more experience. some of the best level designers and artists have never written a book in their lives.

[Duff-e]

This conversation could use a large bag of marijuana.

[Sentura]

well what do you know, i never expected this from you ricky. good on you for actually bothering with this!

i may have gotten too far ahead of myself when i said that immersion was measurable. it is measurable in the sense that you can tell whether or not a person is immersed, but there are no degrees of immersion.

the best you can do to learn, is to take somethign you enjoy playing, be it fps, rpg, platformer, whatever, get a game that has mod tools, and experiment by doing, learn to use the tools, learn what makes a fun experience for you, get others to play it and learn how they felt about it.

saying that fun is not important and that you should focus on trying to be some artsy ponce making braid all over again is a waste of everyones' time and doesn't help the OP who wanted to know what to do next. and frankly there's books out there that don'ty really explain shit. you are better off learnign by doing, getting a job as a junior, and learning from others with more experience. some of the best level designers and artists have never written a book in their lives.

i agree to an extent, although there are certain concepts i know i learned myself from reading about level design (especially from the valve developer wiki). i did, however, not consider the OP's statement or request when writing what i wrote about immersion; it was solely to counter the point that chris brought up.

i will not argue that psychology of human beings is not important in level design. i think it is important to understand that peopel do certain things when they are under pressure, to know the kinds of patterns our brains are receptive to, and the type of imagery that we are repelled by. but it is a vitally important step to simply create little arenas of gameplay to find out how to do things, what is actually enjoyable (a far better word that combines both fun and immersion ) and how to guarantee you can recreate certain feelings and experiences in different situations.

i would actually argue that once you get into the state of immersion, your level of involvement is so high that practically anything will be enjoyable. why? because with each step the player will take by then, he or she knows that he or she is crucial to putting an end to whatever struggle there might be in a game. there are of course restrictions to this, and the breaking of immersion could essentially destroy a game's potential. my point with my previous statement was that immersion is a state of mind that puts the player inside of the game. it is no longer 'just a game' when you reach that point, it is a second world.

[Ginger Lord]

Anyhoooo...

+1 on architecture books.

That said today I saw a building that if I saw in a game I'd think the level designer was really sloppy. Maybe a good idea for a topic, post pics of real buildings that look like newbies made them.

[Sentura]

Anyhoooo...

+1 on architecture books.

That said today I saw a building that if I saw in a game I'd think the level designer was really sloppy. Maybe a good idea for a topic, post pics of real buildings that look like newbies made them.

let me see that building!

[Ginger Lord]

When I'm next out that way (early new year) I'll swing by and take a photo, the roof tiles are on at a 45 degree angle across the whole roof for no reason.