Zacker Posted September 19, 2009 Report Posted September 19, 2009 I know there are programmers in here, so this thread is for you and others with an interest in Engine Programming. As some of you might know, I was recently appointed course manager of a graduate course in Engine Programming. I do not have that much engine programming experience, so I am very much in need all the feedback and input I can get. And Mapcore tends to be good at giving feedback You can find the course webpage here: https://blog.itu.dk/MENP-E2009/ In there you will find course schedule, my slides and more. How does it look? Any important areas that I have left out in the course plan? Any wrong information in my slides? Any feedback is appreciated. Quote
Nysuatro Posted September 19, 2009 Report Posted September 19, 2009 Mathematics for game programming, shaders, .. Just a guess, I am more a technical artist then a engine programmer. But I will send this question to some friends of mine. Quote
wacko Posted September 21, 2009 Report Posted September 21, 2009 So I am going to ask why are you teaching a course you know little or nothing about ? Also is the course more about engine design or graphics programming ? Quote
Defrag Posted September 21, 2009 Report Posted September 21, 2009 If you can, I'd recommend teaming up with some local (even national) games companies and asking them for their feedback on your syllabus. You can't really get much better than straight from the horse's mouth If your course has a chance of producing graduates they will hire, they ought to care. Quote
Nysuatro Posted September 22, 2009 Report Posted September 22, 2009 Maybe an other good idea is to ask an other school. This is my school http://www.digitalartsandentertainment.be They can help you . Quote
Zacker Posted September 27, 2009 Author Report Posted September 27, 2009 Thanks for the feedback guys! So I am going to ask why are you teaching a course you know little or nothing about ? Also is the course more about engine design or graphics programming ? I've been a TA there for a few years and apparently they really liked that. Also, I really like challenges and it has been very cool to read up on so much new stuff in the past months. If you can, I'd recommend teaming up with some local (even national) games companies and asking them for their feedback on your syllabus. You can't really get much better than straight from the horse's mouth If your course has a chance of producing graduates they will hire, they ought to care. Yep, I am working closely with the leads from e.g. Unity and of course also IO Interactive. Quote
Skjalg Posted September 28, 2009 Report Posted September 28, 2009 No offence Zacker, but as a student I hated my 3d teacher so much because I obviously had more experience than him. I couldn't believe how retarded it was that a dude with no experience at all within the field were supposed to train people. I could totally understand it if you got a teaching job teaching what you have worked as (level design, i presume?), but if you dont got any engine programming experience, then how do you except to get your students respect and attention? Quote
hessi Posted September 28, 2009 Report Posted September 28, 2009 i totally see you point, skjalg, but you got to lower your expectations a little. university is often only about the bare basics. so it might be sufficient to teach students with the background zacker has. i just wonder: are you teaching at a real university or is it like a private college where students pay a monthly fee? if you are teaching at a real university you should be asking for feedback from the teachers at the university. someone who is working all day in a games company definitely has a different point of view than someone who is teaching in the university all day. so the quality of your slides might only be judged correctly if we know what audience you are targeting. good luck anyway! i will start teaching students at my university in 2 weeks. i am kind of excited, since it is the first time i do something like that while being paid for it. my topic will be "programming" (basics in object orientation, software engineering, runtime behavior, data structures). i have never been a longtime software developer but teaching these concepts is possible. though i know how hard software development can be and that it needs a some practice too so the expectations on the class are to bring the basic understanding to the students and to not make them professionals. Quote
Hourences Posted September 28, 2009 Report Posted September 28, 2009 No offence but you are saying you go to a uni to learn the bare basics of something and not to become professionals? Exactly how will those people find a job later on then? Exactly why would you want to go to a uni to learn the basics if you could just as well follow a one year education somewhere? To get a nice paper that says you completed a uni so you can please your parents? The dictionary defines a uni as "an institution of learning of the highest level". I thought a university is suppose to make you ready for a job, a starting expert, and is suppose to give you a serious training that is well above the level of all other kinds of educations. I have seen many many many stories come by of people who attend a level design (or whatever) class and the teacher is still learning the editor himself while teaching. Or people who teach in schools but never actually made any kind of game themselves or at best worked a mere few months in a studio. That is really damaging for the reputation of educations, and that is why many are being totally ignored by many professionals or even looked down on, in turn affecting often blindly enthusiastic students. And that is a huge problem within our industry that should really be resolved over the next 5 to 10 years if we want to mature as an industry. And that is something that, being in the position to do something about it, you should really try to at least improve throughout your career as a teacher. Quote
hessi Posted September 28, 2009 Report Posted September 28, 2009 learning basics in a class is what makes university so great and damn useful. this doesn't counter your definition of learning on the highest level in my understanding. you can spend 4 hours on artificial intelligence a week for a semester without being a professional in AI. the class enables you to have a complete overview of the topic so you can decide where to specialize in. having this class layout the students will maximize their intellectual horizon. later in a job they will sure be specialists in only a few topics, but their knowledge of other domains will enable them to find creative solutions and/or communicate better with professionals of those other domains. if you are talking about a more professional game industry, then there should be a much broader view in the development of games. how to achieve that? by having classes i talked about. example: if i want to hire an artist, i look at his skills in visuals but i also pay a lot of attention on technical understanding. he should be able to talk with a programmer and understand technical constraints. so as a design student (or what ever a game artist would fit into) you wouldn't do a programming course that goes into all detail and makes the artist a programmer, don't you?! so to answer your question: yes, i go to university not become a professional, but to become someone who will find creative solutions to problems, can talk to experts of other domains and can decide where to later specialize in. Quote
hessi Posted September 28, 2009 Report Posted September 28, 2009 Have you finished a university degree? Your plain ignorance makes it look like you haven't. Quote
Pericolos0 Posted September 28, 2009 Report Posted September 28, 2009 The problem is that what really happens is that everybody got taught a bit of everything but nobody got trained to be a professional. So many people graduating from game schools with no real skills, maybe one or two from their year find a job if they are lucky. It's good to learn the extra stuff to expand your horizon and maybe get interested in stuff you didn't care about before, but there should really be a focus on become an industry-ready professional in the end. Trained by other industry professionals. The lack of professionalism in my professors is one of the big reasons i quit college, it just felt their wasn't anything to learn from them. It was so frustrating being in classes with a teacher that was still learning the subject himself. No offence Zacker but I really wouldn't want to be taught engine programming by someone with no experience in it, it's one of those things that takes years of experience and knowing all the tricks and the pitfalls, the real valuable knowledge you need to give to your students. Quote
Hourences Posted September 28, 2009 Report Posted September 28, 2009 May I remind you that it is you who has almost no actual professional experience yet ignores all points I make about what is IMO best for someones career and what would increase their chances as a beginning professional? Ignorance what? So don't go into that direction, thanks. In any case you illustrated the entire problem of teaching without having actual experience. A few rare exceptions aside, it is very difficult to educate people into something you have little experience in, and not just because of the actual (or lack of) knowledge about the subject in question, but also because it takes a long while to gain a solid understanding of the industry and the problems it faces, its expectations, it (many) shortcomings, and develop your vision required to make a difference and overcome those issues, to truly guide students into their career and fostering their dreams and ambitions and help them achieve those. And that is something that goes well above "bare basics". Many experienced people in the industry think that the current education available is not adequate. One of the most cited reasons is that students know too little and too many general things upon graduating. How will you tackle that perception? How will you improve the chances of your students getting work upon graduating? A general problem is also that there are more educations available than there are companies almost. It already is difficult to get a job in this industry as a graduate because of the sheer number of interested people. This is somewhat dependent on location too, but still, with the amount of competition available, and the ever increasing amount of competition within our sector, "bare basics" is surely not going to cut out the competition? Dont understand me wrong, I am very happy that you got this great opportunity and you did well in accepting it and I hope you do well. But do not turn a blind eye on the actual needs of the industry, and the problems that are in between todays industry and a mature games industry, and the latter is a responsibility we all carry. Quote
Sentura Posted September 28, 2009 Report Posted September 28, 2009 The problem is that what really happens is that everybody got taught a bit of everything but nobody got trained to be a professional. So many people graduating from game schools with no real skills, maybe one or two from their year find a job if they are lucky. It's good to learn the extra stuff to expand your horizon and maybe get interested in stuff you didn't care about before, but there should really be a focus on become an industry-ready professional in the end. Trained by other industry professionals. The lack of professionalism in my professors is one of the big reasons i quit college, it just felt their wasn't anything to learn from them. It was so frustrating being in classes with a teacher that was still learning the subject himself. No offence Zacker but I really wouldn't want to be taught engine programming by someone with no experience in it, it's one of those things that takes years of experience and knowing all the tricks and the pitfalls, the real valuable knowledge you need to give to your students. well said. the last paragraph especially; there are perspectives you can only get after you learn a specific number of things, which for most people happens to be after years of training. an example would be how to see the world in a logical fashion and being able to decipher anything into code, another being able to spot problems within an instant. these highly intuitive skills are what distinguishes a real expert from someone who has just read every book on programming. Quote
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