Deus Ex 1 too slow paced, not memorable enough

[Chunks]

Why has Mapcore recently turned into a Gamersyde, Gametrailers or Kotaku comments section. Filled with people misconstruing everything they can, seemingly on purpose?

The editors/bloggers at kotaku already do a damn good job of that from the get-go, except for the on-purpose part.

[Minos]

You guys know absolutely nothing about the game and are already throwing shit at it... way to go mapcore

[-HP-]

Yeh, maybe you're right...

personally, i guess I get a little bit over-protective when I see the good name of DeusEx threatened!

[Sentura]

bitch bitch bitch bias bitch bitch fanboyism bitch bitch

how about starting any new game with no expectations for once and i'm sure you'll all feel better after playing it through. too much fucking nerd rage here; what is it, that time of the month already?

[Steppenwolf]

No amount of complaining online about your presumed design choices is going to change anything

This may be true for your company but is certainly not a universal truth. I know for a fact that Capcom for example always has an open ear for fan complains and rethinks some design decissions if the complains appear appropriate. I witnessed this a couple of times during the development of Bionic Commando.

Closing eyes and ears is one way for developers/publishers to deal with the community. But its a pretty arrogant one imo. In the end you make the games for the players not for yourself. If you start to hate your audience, ignore them and treat them like idiots who have no idea you should work in a different buissness. Fanboys can be annoying and idiotic but its an privillege to work on something that has fans. Its just too easy to look down on them from your high horse...

This is my opinion as a professional. I obviously started the thread from the fanboy perspective. Didnt knew that mapcore is a place now where only strictly professional topics are acceptable... You know thers better forums for that. I still see it as a place where i have a lot of friends and where i can talk about things a bit more open.

[Sentura]

the forums are pretty open, we all have the freedom of speech so far as the admins and mods let us have it here. but ask yourself, what was the point of this thread? was it just to condemn a quote of interest given through a third party website? was it to spark similar hatred from the people here?

i, as well as, i think, everyone else here, don't mind people creating threads per se. but when they are created with no point other than general hatred for something as vague as a quote for a game that is nowhere near release, it's no better than having bible thumpers standing on street corners condemning everyone that doesn't believe in their faith, because of miscontrued sentences. if this was genuinely to influence developers for that specific game, feel free to tell them personally. i am sure they would appreciate the feedback better that way, than if they had to search for it on some forum out on the internet wastes. hell, you should know, "as a professional".

[FrieChamp]

I still see it as a place where i have a lot of friends and where i can talk about things a bit more open.

If "open" means honest, then this is something which we should support here, if it means cynicism, jump to the gun conclusions and calling people names, then I think this is something undesirable. I'm not putting this into context with all of your posts or your posts only, mind you, I just think this is what Taylor and Furyo were indicating and something that caught attention in other recent threads as well.

[Steppenwolf]

Sentura did i mention that you are the biggest idiot on this forum? You bash each of my posts anyway no matter what i write so take your faked opinions and political correctness and shove it up your ass. You are not more then a troll in my book.

Some people really have to make a big deal out of everything. I thought it should be clear that my opening post was sarcastic and not meant to offend anyone. Still it contained my actual fear as a fan of Deus Ex that this game might head in the wrong direction. But obviously its more important to some people to discuss the form of a post then its context.

[Sentura]

i actually couldn't care less about you or what you think of me. i am not bashing you because i am thinking, "oh it's steppenwolf, i better bash him", i take everything for what it's worth. i've seen you post decent things at times, while at others just spewing bullshit. i don't judge you beyond what is in the context of the post or thread; and in this specific case, the premise of the entire thread is just "bashing", which i think is silly.

also, as it may not seem to you or other people, i believe everything i say here, regardless of correctness. if someone corrects me on something with valid reason, i take it to heart-- something alot of people could learn from. you think i am being arrogant when in fact i am trying to be purely objective towards what people write here. i don't consider the status of "friends", amount of professionalism or other when i read a thread, i just consider the context of it.

EDITED for less offense.

[st0lve]

If people think that comments about a classic being remade into something else is cynical, then so be it. It's someones personal (and probably more than honest) opinion cause they might like the original game.

When a lead designer comes with a statement like that, it's ofcourse doomed to be full of hate.

[Furyo]

No amount of complaining online about your presumed design choices is going to change anything

This may be true for your company but is certainly not a universal truth. I know for a fact that Capcom for example always has an open ear for fan complains and rethinks some design decissions if the complains appear appropriate. I witnessed this a couple of times during the development of Bionic Commando.

Closing eyes and ears is one way for developers/publishers to deal with the community. But its a pretty arrogant one imo. In the end you make the games for the players not for yourself. If you start to hate your audience, ignore them and treat them like idiots who have no idea you should work in a different buissness. Fanboys can be annoying and idiotic but its an privillege to work on something that has fans. Its just too easy to look down on them from your high horse...

This is my opinion as a professional. I obviously started the thread from the fanboy perspective. Didnt knew that mapcore is a place now where only strictly professional topics are acceptable... You know thers better forums for that. I still see it as a place where i have a lot of friends and where i can talk about things a bit more open.

Please don't turn this into a company vs company policy, because there would be no end to this discussion. I never said you should close your eyes and ears, but as a developer I hope you take good care of not letting just every opinion, especially those expressed by fanboys dictate what you do. If you did, trust me you wouldn't even start trying anything new. Any license that has a remote connection to something classic will get everyone torn between the "I'm glad they changed this and that, I needed something fresh" and the "WTF were those guys thinking changing my beloved feature" crowds.

This is not about hating my audience, even less ignoring them or treating them like idiots. It's about taking your own design where you want it to go based on the playtests you organize. Because looking at the forums for reactions is only going to give you a multiple headed monster you won't be able to do anything with.

As far as not making the games for ourselves as developers I totally agree, but in the end you make it for your publisher not for the players. The publisher dictates what he likes and doesn't and also funds the development studio more often than not. In your position at Grin, I think you would know that. Particularly when your boss said so in a recent interview. At Ubi, this is the exact same thing except we're developers as well as publishers which actually gives us a lot more freedom (I think). For one thing I get to pick which projects I work on, a luxury few studios can give but that generally increases the quality of the games because there starts to be competition for these spots.

[Steppenwolf]

As far as not making the games for ourselves as developers I totally agree, but in the end you make it for your publisher not for the players. The publisher dictates what he likes and doesn't and also funds the development studio more often than not. In your position at Grin, I think you would know that. Particularly when your boss said so in a recent interview. At Ubi, this is the exact same thing except we're developers as well as publishers which actually gives us a lot more freedom (I think). For one thing I get to pick which projects I work on, a luxury few studios can give but that generally increases the quality of the games because there starts to be competition for these spots.

That is only true on the management level. As a creative person you shouldnt work with buissness things in mind. It should be your motivation to make the best game possible - for the players. It's the job of the producers to tell you where your budget and creative limits are and to deal with the needs of the publishers. Of course you shouldnt listen to all the bullshit that comes from the community. You have to filter. That should be clear...

What i can't stand is when creative people or even fans defend horrible design decissions that were made for buissness reasons. You see this a lot in gaming forums. Someone will start a thread critizicing a shitty design decission and then appears some defender with the argument "but this way it will sell much more, the gamers today only want casual games, there is no audience for complex games anymore etc. bla bla". This always comes of brainwashed to me and has something of preemptive obedience (imo one of the worst character features a person can have). And the saddest thing is it becomes part of a self-fullfilling prophecy because at some point everybody will believe that this is the truth.

No offence Furyo but your comments sound like you are already somewhat disconnected from the gaming crowd. Personaly i couldnt have fun working on games if i didnt feel the same emotions about games that gamers feel.

[Jetsetlemming]

If people think that comments about a classic being remade into something else is cynical, then so be it. It's someones personal (and probably more than honest) opinion cause they might like the original game.

When a lead designer comes with a statement like that, it's ofcourse doomed to be full of hate.

This.

ESPECIALLY with the current grumblings over no more shadow-based stealth and regenerating health, knocking the original game that you're supposed to be making a valid successor to is not a good idea and this guy probably should've seen this reaction coming.

Honestly, if the guy thinks that the Deus Ex formula is too slow and not memorable enough, fine. Good for him. But he shouldn't be making a game using the Deus Ex formula, then. There are plenty of good games without it, but if you're working on a sequel to one of the most popular PC games ever made, with a huge millions strong rabid fanbase clamoring for years for a similar game all across the internet.... denying them is a very dumb thing to do. Like sticking your hand in a piranha tank.

[Ginger Lord]

Oh you guys...

It was a bit of a dumb thing to say knowing full well what response he would get. Whether or not it was some crazy PR stunt or not to get people talking remains to be seen, it certainly worked!