Calling those in the Industry

[tommy]

Ok guys I need some advice based on their personal experiences within the industry.

I'll try to keep it short!

I'm in a position right now where I don't know what to do, I don't want to fuck up my life any more than it already is

Say you have no qualification/degree on the paper but a strong! passion for game development.

Would there be a difference if you actually had a degree, one that has nothing to do with game design at all ?

At most it is a degree about electronics (resistors, capacitors, pcb design,...)

Well, can you still get a job without any degree but a strong portfolio?

I for one used to map(hl1 ), due to my school I had to keep it short to the point where I completely stopped.

At that point I started to learn C at said school and now I have a fairly deep knowledge of C(but no actual degree, since there's other stuff I'm not interested in).

It was also the only thing I was ever interested in at my school, since I knew how important it is for game design.

Unfortunately I was always ahead of time and had to learn everything on my own(OpenGL, SDL, network, GUI), so when I look back, yeah the school basically was kinda pointless.

As of now I have some code snippets for my portfolio(Huffman compression implementation, some GUI stuff(wxwidgets,Qt), OpenGL Demo with own pcx/obj loader)

What are my chances of getting employed?

I guess its hard since all the programming related jobs require some sort of degree :/

But yeah I don't really want to code 24/7, that's just something I realized I'm good at.

As said I used to map, before I entered this school and learned C I was sure as hell that my favourite position would be level designer.

I just love computer art, that is also why I'm kinda shocked that I like programming that much.

So my favourite position is Technical Artist, I think that fills both, my artistic and technical needs

But my most recent map dates back to HL1, have something for Hl2 but I wouldn't put this in my portfolio, so I seriously lack

on the art side.

Question is, what should I do?

Should I drop out and try my luck, or still try get my degree even though it has nothing to do with game design and I hate it with a passion ?

I wanted to work in the industry anyway, after my graduation, there was never any doubt.

When you can still remember the day you played your first computer game and the special feeling you had at that moment and never had that feeling again then you know this is it

Say I do drop out and get a job, is my lacking degree preventing me from moving up?

I don't want to be in a junior position till I retire

I think that's solely based on work experience?

Salary.

I don't get more money due to that degree that is actually pointless?

Another important thing, I want to work abroad.

Ever since I showed interest in the games industry it became clear to me that I don't want to work in my country, well except England (EU citizen btw)

It was always clear to me that once I graduate I want to move to North America.

I just love the country, the people, just about everything. Nothing is more exciting for me than doing game design abroad.

Besides there's not much game design going on in my country anyway since they shut down Rockstar Vienna

What are my chances of getting employed in North America as a EU citizen nowadays?

I think it used to be a common thing? That is also why I like the industry

I've seen some nice job offers, say I apply for them(based in CA/US) and they want me for an interview do I get a refund for my flight/trip?

I think so but I'm not sure?!

Then again how likely is it to pick people from the EU?

Or how should I start? Is it "cocky" to apply for jobs overseas when you have no work experience at all?

Also how much money do you need for such a relocation? I don't want/need anything fancy. All my things can be packed into one suitcase.

Your experiences ?

Ok that's it for now, thanks for your time guys!

Really appreciate it

[Furyo]

That's quite a mouthful, so I'll try and address questions one by one but you can always ask for more info later on...

- Would there be a difference if you actually had a degree, one that has nothing to do with game design at all ?

That entirely depends on the field you'd be looking to get a job into. Artists preferably have one, programmers absolutely do need, designers come from every walk of life. That's a generalization but you're likely to encounter that. Obviously mod work can replace a degree, even more favorably if the mod is widely known and presents some groundbreaking stuff. Day of Defeat is one example of a mod that didn't require degrees from the team for them to get hired. Given you have no experience in modding beyond several years ago, it's very likely you can't count on that.

I would say, absolutely stay with the degree if only to secure yourself one, which will help you in your life regardless of whether or not you can enter the gaming industry.

- Well, can you still get a job without any degree but a strong portfolio?

Yes you can, again preferably in design and art departments. However you do need that strong portfolio (most of the time) so you better get to that.

- Should I drop out and try my luck, or still try get my degree even though it has nothing to do with game design and I hate it with a passion ?

Hating your degree is a luxury I'm really not sure you're in the position to afford. That sounds rough, and it is, but I think more than anything you need to finish that degree, if only to prove to your future employers you can finish what you start. A degree is a start, however irrelevant to the position it may seem at first. A degree doesn't only teach you skills, it gives you a method to working and delivering on what you were tasked to do.

- Say I do drop out and get a job, is my lacking degree preventing me from moving up?

In my experience, I really don't think it will. You'll move up based on your achievements and the games you work on, not because of your degree. A degree is a gateway into a career, you make your own luck after that.

- What are my chances of getting employed in North America as a EU citizen nowadays?

Without any prior experience, absolutely none nowadays. To get a work visa in the US, your employer needs to prove that your addition to the team brings something no US citizen could do himself/herself but first and foremost you need to have a degree. Period.

Things aren't so tough in Canada, where for instance you don't need a degree (relevant to your job or not) but companies won't give you a chance unless you've started proving you can deliver. Again Day of Defeat was good enough for one other Mapcorian to try his luck here straight from Europe, so you get the idea of how big your work needs to be before that's the case. And this was 5 years ago.

-

I've seen some nice job offers, say I apply for them(based in CA/US) and they want me for an interview do I get a refund for my flight/trip?

If a company wants to see you for an interview, they will provide all the necessary accommodations and pay for it. WHEN you get to that stage in your career, you probably already have worked on some title.

- Or how should I start? Is it "cocky" to apply for jobs overseas when you have no work experience at all?

Cocky or not, you most likely will never hear back from them. If you really are going to work in this field, you need to start by giving yourself the chance studios won't give you at this stage. Pick modding up again, do your own designs, and prove you're someone that can bring something valuable to the existing team.

I would also advise you to stay in Europe for now. For one thing the paperwork will be inexistent to get you a job. You can find some good studios in Germany that can get you a foot in the door. I've seen guys in the modding scene getting interviews recently, there is demand for entry level positions still. Hell it only took me one map before Ubisoft took me on, so you could be that lucky (as luck really plays its major part too)

[Bl1tz]

What are my chances of getting employed in North America as a EU citizen nowadays?

)

Zero without any degree (unless you marry an American or something.) Slightly better (but not by much) with an advanced degree. It's a bad climate for coming here to the US these days. There's even been talk lately of making the H1-B visa more restrictive due to fraud.

Plan on sticking in the EU for now. If you do well there, you'll have a much better chance of coming over here later. Sounds like you're from Austria? There's at least a few companies there... http://gamedevmap.com/index.php?query=A ... mit=Search

As for the rest of your concerns all I can say is focus. Focus on what you enjoy the most and everything else will fall into place.

[kleinluka]

What are my chances of getting employed in North America as a EU citizen nowadays?

)

Zero without any degree (unless you marry an American or something.) Slightly better (but not by much) with an advanced degree. It's a bad climate for coming here to the US these days. There's even been talk lately of making the H1-B visa more restrictive due to fraud.

Plan on sticking in the EU for now. If you do well there, you'll have a much better chance of coming over here later. Sounds like you're from Austria? There's at least a few companies there... http://gamedevmap.com/index.php?query=A ... mit=Search

As for the rest of your concerns all I can say is focus. Focus on what you enjoy the most and everything else will fall into place.

Not so fast.... I know a lot of people (including myself) who have gotten work in North America without any post secondary degree. The US is one thing, and I agree that it's pretty much impossible without a degree.... but the question was NORTH AMERICA...which includes Canada...and Canada's visa rules are softer than USA...it's mainly about convincing the company that you are capable and that you are worth waiting 3 months for to get the work visa.

Furyo wrote:

- What are my chances of getting employed in North America as a EU citizen nowadays?

Without any prior experience, absolutely none nowadays. To get a work visa in the US, your employer needs to prove that your addition to the team brings something no US citizen could do himself/herself but first and foremost you need to have a degree. Period.

Things aren't so tough in Canada, where for instance you don't need a degree (relevant to your job or not) but companies won't give you a chance unless you've started proving you can deliver. Again Day of Defeat was good enough for one other Mapcorian to try his luck here straight from Europe, so you get the idea of how big your work needs to be before that's the case. And this was 5 years ago.

Hehe Yes, mod work can be enough in some cases. I guess I lucked out because DOD actually counted as shipped title since it was made available in retail. In my case I was also lucky because I was working on a mod with the art director of Rainbow Six, who is essentially the guy who got me hired. I would definitely stick to Europe for now and get some experience under your belt.

[FrieChamp]

About working in the USA:

A former German colleague of mine recently moved to the US to work at a studio in LA as a character artist. He's 25 and doesn't have a university degree, that said, he IS amazingly talented, he has worked on games as well as movies here in Germany and got a kick ass portfolio. I'm sure the studio invested a lot of energy/resources in convincing authorities that he is the right man for the job. So in contrast to what the posters before me said, I wouldn't completely out rule the possibility of working in the states without a uni degree BUT you really need a lot of work experience and a company that is determined to help you in all visa related questions. Looking at the background information you provided, I'm afraid this case does not apply to you.

First and foremost get a clear idea of what you would like to do if you worked in games development. You said you code but you also like art which means you got a passion for level design? Woah slow down there, these can be 3 completely different things. Your favourite position would ultimately be a "tech artist"? All this sounds rather vague and unfocused, maybe mino can tell you how he ended up getting a position as "tech artist", but in general I would advise you to specialize in one discipline rather than trying to be the jack of all trades who doesn't stick out in one field.

[Izuno]

Not so fast.... I know a lot of people (including myself) who have gotten work in North America without any post secondary degree. The US is one thing, and I agree that it's pretty much impossible without a degree.... but the question was NORTH AMERICA...which includes Canada...and Canada's visa rules are softer than USA...it's mainly about convincing the company that you are capable and that you are worth waiting 3 months for to get the work visa.

Agreed, and you had experience on a HL mod that became an actual retail/online product which certainly helped, plus letters of recommendation from multiple people employed in the industry. :-) You were an example of a talented artist with the proof to show it who met the right people at the right time.

Tommy, the bottom line to get a job without a degree is you need experience . Given how many people want industry jobs, the more substantial your experience/portfolio the better. As has been said, that means mods and whatever projects you can work on that shows you have a portfolio.

Also, I would reiterate what has been said about focus. In Klein's case, he was clear he wanted an art job and his portfolio + experience was very relevant to that.

So I agree that you should pick out what you really like doing and focus on it. Get good at it. Find ways to build a portfolio. I suggest sticking with your degree and doing mods/portfolio work as much as you can. The industry will be there when you graduate. But this is my opinion, I'm sure others will disagree with me. And meanwhile, if in the next year you kick ass as a coder or designer or whatever you choose on some project that kicks ass, that may be enough to get you in and you can go pro before you go graduate like a US college basketball player going to the NBA out of highschool, except you'd get paid slightly less.

[hessi]

About working in the USA:

A former German colleague of mine recently moved to the US to work at a studio in LA as a character artist. He's 25 and doesn't have a university degree, that said, he IS amazingly talented, he has worked on games as well as movies here in Germany and got a kick ass portfolio. I'm sure the studio invested a lot of energy/resources in convincing authorities that he is the right man for the job. So in contrast to what the posters before me said, I wouldn't completely out rule the possibility of working in the states without a uni degree BUT you really need a lot of work experience and a company that is determined to help you in all visa related questions. Looking at the background information you provided, I'm afraid this case does not apply to you.

First and foremost get a clear idea of what you would like to do if you worked in games development. You said you code but you also like art which means you got a passion for level design? Woah slow down there, these can be 3 completely different things. Your favourite position would ultimately be a "tech artist"? All this sounds rather vague and unfocused, maybe mino can tell you how he ended up getting a position as "tech artist", but in general I would advise you to specialize in one discipline rather than trying to be the jack of all trades who doesn't stick out in one field.

i think i know who you are talking of

to be that asshole once again: somehow i tend to have the impression that people that don't have a degree or a low level degree are not as smart as i would wish them to be. there are exceptions but if you abstract this into a human resource guy perspective: there are two nearly equal good portfolios/artists. the only difference is the degree. the one has a diploma and the other nothing at all. a company that is focusing on money would probably pick the one without a degree and give less salary because they can nail him with the lacking degree. a smart company would pick the degree guy because they know that knowledge is a resource too and getting it into the company won't hurt at all.

in general: if you already started a degree, then finish it. for what i can say there are moments when i seriously consider not to work in the game industry because of multiple reasons that you might find out your self sooner or later. if you want to do something different later, a degree might be helpfull.

[Steppenwolf]

Well OP since the passion is there and some talent, but your portfolio is lacking it would be an idea to start as a tester in QA. Once you have your foot in the door you can keep working on your portfolio in private and show some of your other talents at work.

[Defrag]

You have to be pragmatic IMO. It's one thing to chase a dream when you have a strong portfolio for your chosen vocation (or are at least 'nearly there'), but it's a totally different thing to do it when you realistically can't apply for those jobs until you have gained skills and built up an impressive portfolio. Do you have the time, energy and money to build up a portfolio in the interim period if you drop out? Most people don't. This may sound harsh, but it doesn't sound like you are anywhere near ready to start pitching for level design jobs. I went through exactly the same thing about ~5 years ago when I quit my first university course. I thought, "I want to be a level designer", but the truth is that I didn't have the time or money to get to the level where I could start applying for jobs in the short term. As a result, I went back to university and did another programming degree shortly thereafter. Ultimately, I grew to love programming and now that's what I do.

Frie hit the nail on the head regarding your ideas sounding vague and unfocussed. Your situation sounds awfully familiar to me, so be careful not to end up in the same mess I did!

Regarding programming: At some companies, you do not need a degree to be a programmer. However, if you don't have a degree, what you definitely DO need is a demo that sets you apart from the competition. Coursework from your school projects will not impress unless it is really top drawer stuff (in hindsight, this is a mistake I made with my portfolio, but I also had the degree to help secure a job). A small, polished game demo is enough to show your mettle, but again it takes time to do this stuff. If you want to compromise, you could possible switch university courses to take up programming full time (I don't know how far you are through your degree, so it's hard to offer any concrete advice). The best advice I can give is not to make any rash decisions. If you drop out and then find yourself in a bad situation, it can take a year or more to recover from it, or maybe not at all depending on how the funding system works (I had to pay two years of my tuition fees due to dropping out the first time).

I think the most important thing to realise is that "passion" is bandied about a lot. Talking about your passion doesn't really help when applying for jobs -- you have to be able to demonstrate your love for games through doing, and that means building a good portfolio. I'm not trying to kill your dreams or anything here, but I think you need to look at your situation in the cold light of day and then decide whether it is viable. If not, then you need to work on your skills and build a portfolio while studying, or figure out whether you have the time and commitment to make it happen if you drop out.

I would definitely recommend doing mod work because it helps you become a team player and understand the commitment required in creating and releasing a project. You may find that you work as a level designer on a mod and can't be bothered, but you really enjoy the programming side of it (or vice versa). As klein said, it is also a great help when it comes to building up industry contacts.

I also pretty much fully agree with Hessi's opinion on a degree. The average games industry career lasts ~6 years, so you need to be prepared for life after games

*edit -- Also regarding technical artists: Where I am, it's a senior position. They have to make a lot of big decisions about workflow and asset creation / technology, so it's a position that is not open to juniors -- you have to work up to it

[kleinluka]

*edit -- Also regarding technical artists: Where I am, it's a senior position. They have to make a lot of big decisions about workflow and asset creation / technology, so it's a position that is not open to juniors -- you have to work up to it

Unless your name is Mino..then you're just a natural....pro.....guy.

[Minos]

*edit -- Also regarding technical artists: Where I am, it's a senior position. They have to make a lot of big decisions about workflow and asset creation / technology, so it's a position that is not open to juniors -- you have to work up to it

Unless your name is Mino..then you're just a natural....pro.....guy.

lol as I said I won't do any programming but it's not a junior position either. There's also a big difference between being a technical artist in a next gen game and in a DS title.

First, get a job in your own home country. It's easier since you don't have to apply for a visa, relocate to a new country and learn a new culture. Try to do some freelance work for outsourcing/indie studios in your area. You will get the chance to work on multiple titles in a short period of time learning many different skills and making important industry connections.

Being sort of generalist is good when you are starting but don't lose focus. If you want a texture artist position it will help to have a few levels done all by yourself, even if they are made just for the eye candy and have no actual gameplay. That's a way to prove you are actually a GAME artist who understands working pipelines, limitations and so on and not some random CG guy who makes low poly stuff, makes fancy mental ray renders and claims to be a game artist (I see so many of those nowadays).

Unless you have a strong portfolio with a few shipped titles your chances to get hired by any US companies are null.

[Defrag]

*edit -- Also regarding technical artists: Where I am, it's a senior position. They have to make a lot of big decisions about workflow and asset creation / technology, so it's a position that is not open to juniors -- you have to work up to it

Unless your name is Mino..then you're just a natural....pro.....guy.

You can't legislate for teh minos, tbh!

[2d-chris]

I think going into testing or quality control would put you off the games industry for eons. But Wolf is correct in suggesting it as a good way into the Industry, quite a lot of designers I know started there.

Most importantly, decide exactly what It is you want to focus on, that usually is down to what part of games interests you the most. No job is particually harder than others in terms of time and dedicated devoted to get your skills up to a professional standard. You'll spend 10 years+ as a professional before you might be considered a master at your respective trade.

Think of this like playing a music instrument, none are "easier" to master and they take many years of practice, lessons and fustration before you score your first gig. People who enjoy a lengthy challenge end up being great at what they do, not everyone is cut out for that

All the advise in this thread is good, at least from my experiences

(thought I'd give a more mental approach as the actual technical advise needs no repeating)

[Sentura]

right now i am very much in the same position as you. i am taking a bsc in software development, which is basically programming with extensions in algorithms, datastructures and some database handling. i'll be honest, i hate it. there's nothing i'd like more than to just drop what i am doing now and start using time on something i can and will spend time working with rather than studying the particulars of a dictionary tree or other. sadly i have rooted myself in this right now, which means i have to end it (i am just about halfway through)-- mostly for personal reasons and pressure from various sources. i shame myself for being pushed into this in the first place and even though i enjoy learning, this is just not the way i visioned things to be.

either how, this isn't so much about me as it is about you. depending on what type of person you are and how strong your passion for design (and design of games in particular), you either drop what you're doing or you bite it in and continue until you're done. i have a reassuring feeling that i will no doubt find work in the games industry because of my passion and insight, regardless of whether i have a degree or not; but i guess if you had that, you wouldn't be here in the first place. if you're one of those people who want to seek a new approach for things, then be honest with yourself. if you feel the change and the that the consequences will be too hard to handle, then stay.

i have no doubt that these people are trying to help you the best they can, but i'd still take everything you see written here with a grain of salt; what i have written here included. while people may know the specifics of this industry, i reckon there's more to this than just the industry. in the end, it's your own choice and it is for you to make, not for others to decide or judge upon.