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Fitna

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It's the right of free speech. Something that doesn't exist in countrys ruled by religious leaders.

That's why the tibetian monks are being slaughtered? By the *sigh* atheist dictatorship in peking?

If you feel offended fine. Religious people always get offended by anything that doesn't fit in their view of the world.

Any one is offended if something doesn't fit in his view of the world. That's not too specific tbh, isn't it?

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Atheism CAN be seen as a delusion as well and is in the same way a "state of mind" as religious world-views. Its just a philosophic design which religion extends with an background.

That's not correct because atheism is in no way related to believe in superstitious thinking which is a necessary point for the definition of a delusion.

Oh and - Scientology is not a religion. They enjoy certain law-protections in some parts of the world (such as the US) which occur to be meant to protect religious-freedom but that doesnot make them a legit religion, does it?

Scientology is a sect or a cult. If you look at the history of all religions they started as the same. If scientology started 2000 years ago and would still exist you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between this cult and all the other cults that are now considered religions. Our perception of scientology is only different because we actualy life in the time period where it starts to spread out.

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That's why the tibetian monks are being slaughtered? By the *sigh* atheist dictatorship in peking?

Again you bring up communism. Atheism is not the point of communism its only a side product. And communism itself is as dangerous as religion. It even follows some of the same princibles of religion. In China Jesus, Allah or whoever got replaced by a picture and legends of Mao. In soviet union it was Lenin, Stalin etc.

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That's not correct because atheism is in no way related to believe in superstitious thinking which is a necessary point for the definition of a delusion.

*provoke* It is superstitious to believe that everything is happening without a reason and as the result of randomness */provoke*

Scientology is a sect or a cult. If you look at the history of all religions they started as the same. If scientology started 2000 years ago and would still exist you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between this cult and all the other cults that are now considered religions. Our perception of scientology is only different because we actualy life in the time period where it starts to spread out.

As said above, a religion has to messure in its worldy part, if it does good for mankind. In christianity the highest values are the love for enemies and the grace of charity. And it's independent of your wealth. Let me think of Scientology... Mh, you have to spend your wealth, your love is bound to the system and you have to report into the mechanics which are trying to control you. Christianity is based on a belief, Scientology is based on an Institution. Jesus was a jew, not a christian. Ron Hubbard was a Scientologist right from the beginning. He invented a religion, Christ became the religion - that's a huge difference.

Again you bring up communism. Atheism is not the point of communism its only a side product. And communism itself is as dangerous as religion. It even follows some of the same princibles of religion. In China Jesus, Allah or whoever got replaced by a picture and legends of Mao. In soviet union it was Lenin, Stalin etc.

I just pointed out that "atheistic" countries don't have the freedom of speech neceserially.

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steppenwolf, being atheist isnt a free ticket to be an asshole to everybody who thinks different, youre just being immature and you are generalising like someone who has brains the size of a wallnut so for the sake of all other atheists, stop making yourself look like a fool.

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I disagree that atheism is dangerous. You have to see that all religious people who actualy believe in their fairy tales have delusions. A delusion is a neurotic mental disorder. Atheism is no delusion. It's a normal state of mind and therefore cant be considered dangerous. All trouble between religious and atheist people is caused by the religious delusions in the first place. If an atheist uses force to make his point then this is a problem of his individual character and not his atheist view of the world.

So, basically more than 90% of the world - all the theistic people around the world - have delusions? Man, this really explains a LOT. Also explains why delusions lead to virtues and morality, as religious people mostly bow before them in order to be a good human (or to please the god - or the spirits - or the ancestors - or whatever tool that religion utilizes to bring them to do good things), whereas many atheist people tend to be immoral (I know from experience - I'm an atheist :ninja: ). It's a difference when talking about, e.g., fundamentalists killing people, because they adhere to those principles they were being hammered from the beginning on, which tend to be horribly wrong in general. As you may know, the Bible (and the same goes for the Quran and the Tora, actually) can be interpreted in many ways. There are just as much different interpretations of one religion as there are religions or countries. Not everyone is a fundie. And not everyone truly believes in their religion's story just as if they would believe in a historical document.

I brought up the soviet-russian communism to prove the point that cruelty and suppresion can be done by so called atheists as well and that unhumanity does not depend on religion. That is not about cold-war-fear but about historical examples.

Just as there are and were secularist dictatorships (the CCCP wasn't a communist state btw - it was a socialist state) not being bound by religious beliefs or anything else, there are and were religious reigns and movements under which the religion was used as a tool to mobilize people for war, hatred and all that. It's not that simple. :|

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Killertomato: I just state the obvious.

I consider myself agnostic btw. I don't know if god exists or not. All i know is that there has never been a single piece of evidence that god is that what is written in the so called "holy" books. But on the other hand is shitload of evidence that proof these books wrong.

If god is a caring, loving shepard like the bible suggests why is there so much brutality, suffering and unfairness in this world? Why has prayer evidently no statistical effect on the destiny of believers compared to non-believers? If he can perform miracles on sick people like believers think why has he never performed one on a amputee? If he is almighty why does he need prophets to teach people "the truth" about him? Wouldn't it be much more effective if he showed everyone personaly the truth? I come to the conclussion that god if he really exists is either unwilling or lacks the ability to change things. Therefore i see no reason to care about him or believe in the nonsense written in old books.

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Killertomato: I just state the obvious.

I consider myself agnostic btw. I don't know if god exists or not. All i know is that there has never been a single piece of evidence that god is that what is written in the so called "holy" books. But on the other hand is shitload of evidence that proof these books wrong.

If god is a caring, loving shepard like the bible suggests why is there so much brutality, suffering and unfairness in this world? Why has prayer evidently no statistical effect on the destiny of believers compared to non-believers? If he can perform miracles on sick people like believers think why has he never performed one on a amputee? If he is almighty why does he need prophets to teach people "the truth" about him? Wouldn't it be much more effective if he showed everyone personaly the truth? I come to the conclussion that god if he really exists is either unwilling or lacks the ability to change things. Therefore i see no reason to care about him or believe in the nonsense written in old books.

Funnily enough I got into an argument with my mom earlier today when I asked her that if god gave us freedom that means he can't interfere in our lives, otherwise what would be the point of said freedom? But the point is, why does he supposedly interfere in the lives of those who pray? Sounds very paradoxal.

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Steppenwolf - you are argumenting very closely to what Epikur said 300 b.C.. Infact you are striving the whole discussion of the Theodizee-question and it's a little too much to discuss this all in here (heck, i wrote my a-levels about the theodizee-question). Let's just point me out something, a discussion which was lead by Frankfurtian priest Willy Veit on the sinking of the Titanic in 1912.

Veit states, that many people argument like you did - What does this god or why doesn't he do what he's "supposed" to be. They drew the conclusion that if god doesn't jump in and helps you everytime you pray, he doesn't exist. That is right. This god does not exist. There is no such god who comes down to you every here and when like the police you can call. Instead there's a god who gave you the ability to control everything. Mankind discovered and researched alot of things until now and it is up to mankind to change things. It's not paradise's god who will interfer everythere but it's us now who have to fight medical issues and poverty. That doesn't make god redundant, it makes him, as I pointed out before, the confirmation in what we are doing. Furthermore as it is our mission to improve the world with our knowledge, it makes him the judge about what we do.

That's ofcourse just one approach on the question of the theodizee but it's a pretty reasonable one. You can check some more approaches in the wikipedia, they have a pretty good article about this topic.

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Fitna the movie is boring, but its purpose is genius. Special treatment of religion (such as 'no criticism' 'be respectful') inevitably leads to violence. And atheism is not a belief, god is a concept entirely made up by believers, just like anyone can come up with concepts. It says nothing about others.

Freedom of speech :-D

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arguing over whether god exist or not is probably the worst discussion one can take up. i say let people have their beliefs as long as they do not judge others because they have a different faith. the bible, bullshit or not, still has some good points about how to live life in peace, and i know many atheists that live by those advices.

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