The Postman

I can't believe we're still actually arguing this crackpot crap.

Hooray, more bullshit!

Wait, what? Are you saying that the Cold War boiled over? Where was I during the nuclear holocaust?

Ho ho ho RD, not at all

I'm not done yet, but midterms for my international poli-sci class have come up, so I'm on hiatus until Wednesday at least. Just FYI.

hahahaha this is freakin' cool. Great work!

That's your opinion. You're welcome to it. However, the re-printings of the article in the face of largely peaceful protest (with a few extremists thrown in) was just antagonistic and yes, childish. The discourse offered by them was two dimensional (no pun intended), very offensive to the entire religion and not a good way of getting an intelligent argument going. I think we can at least agree that the cartoon was that. My solution of getting their people to realize that they need to rise up and better themselves is proven false? Oh my RD you're going to have to back that one up with some major longterm statistics and articles about the Middle East and her peoples, because you see, I was talking about the Middle East, not Europe. Re-read my post again. Fair enough. To be honest I believe that the protests would've been much less on the whole if it was website oriented. Largely because of a large-scale lack of access to the internet that the ME has. My argument has been and continues to be that there are better and more mature levels of argument and discourse than stupid cartoons. Your refusal to re-read that nice long post I made is just silly, and the request to re-read your posts after suggesting that is just insulting.

Agreed. Excuse my blanket statement. I should've clarified that. This is what I already wrote. It's something they feel very strongly about, though. That's the difference. Read my long diatribe up there, I think I cover a little of this too.

Denmark. The spark that ignited all this lies at their fault. However now I think the riots will probably cease due to the whole mosque explosion in Iraq. I think that'll grab some attention. My point is that their reasoning is flawed. So how do you fix it? Go read my nice long post on this very subject earlier in the thread. Wait, what? They were wrong to get angry about being insulted?

Is that all you've got? Please. Flamewar over. Back to the topic at hand. That goes for both Killer and Scraps.

Then reference the proper thread next time. The people doing it thought it was justified. Those who can look at it objectively know that it wasn't. That's the difference. She's responsible for her own actions, not her husband's. However she must've known he'd respond quite negatively if he found out. There are more levels to this than simple black and white reasoning that you seem to be fond of.

No you didn't. I just went and rechecked. You didn't. Please point me out where you said this in any way shape or form on page one. You're explaining it and yes, there were reasons for 9/11. The action was horrible, and not at all justified, but there was a pathos for it happening. It didn't spawn in a void. That being said, 9/11 was not justified, just as these riots and threats of death are not justified. That's the difference between posting on a small insular forums website... ...and printing a cartoon in a largely read print publication.

happykleinday~

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast ... index.html Shiites vs Sunnis, round II, fight! Hey at least the US presence in Iraq is stablizing that region. The destruction of ancient structures is just heartbreaking. Especially such magnificent buildings as the Askari "golden mosque." This is only going to get worse before it gets any better. The tension between Sunni and Shiite Muslims was already pretty thick, and this would be pretty much like Russia nuking New York to get the cold war hot. http://www.tampabays10.com/war/war_arti ... ryid=26069 Retaliations have begun. A cleric has just been murdered.

My final argument is basically this. The problem in the Middle East trascends race or religion. It's a problem that effects all failed states that have high populations of impoverished, desperate, and poorly educated people. Religion, as a whole, doesn't help these people in the way that it helps people in the developed nations. Instead it acts like a catalyst in finding scapegoats and goading on people with an unrealistic zeal. So how do we fix this problem? For one these nations need to have better infrastructure. That means power, water, gas, and sewage available to people in these countries. The problems faced by most of these people stem from the frustration of a subsistance or hard life. Needing an outlet to vent those angers on can be sated by making sure through slow methodical change of infrastructure their lives become more comfortable. Comfortable people are happy people. After this seemingly inconsequential change is made and maintained only then can these people begin to modernize and globalize their economies and begin to soothe the extremist masses by giving them no pool of angry peasants to wield like an axe. This however, comes to a conundrum. The change must occur inside the countries themselves and also requires a secular government more free from corruption. The change must be put forth by the people in that country and not from western nations(although non-governmental bodies couldn't hurt to help aid in other areas before and during the change). This is a slow and deliberate process that can't be forced from outside and will probably not be reached in our lifetimes. There are already success stories though. The UAE and Turkey are both excellent examples of largely Islamic nations that have made incredible strides to modernize and globalize their economies and peoples. There is hope for change out there, but it will be slow in coming. Again, this isn't a problem with Islam itself, nor Islamics in general. It is a problem faced by all impoverished, desperate people in need of a reason why things are so bad. Only by slow, deliberate, internal change can they remedy themselves in the longterm. The Cartoon My final thought on this matter is essentially this. My arguments this entire time have been an explanation of the situation, not a defense of the Muslim reaction nor ills commited by the Islamic extremists in the past. It's been a critical look at how one insulting act has been spun as a free speech rallying cry of the west, when in truth it had nothing to do with that. It existed because free speech exists, but it was not celebrating that right in and of itself. It was deliberately and insensitively attacking Islam as a whole instead of the extremists who stain its reputation. However, the EU and the nations involved in the further spread of this cartoon and its legacy have to take some responsibility for their actions. These things don't happen in a void. Much in the same way that if I wore an anti-Bush teeshirt into a Mesquite, Texas country-western bar I'd probably get my ass handed to me. That's not to say that all people who supported Bush are violent hicks, but it does say that my attempt at expression certainly wasn't appreciated, regardless of how much free speech I used in wearing that shirt. I'm responsible for that action though. I made the decision, I offended them, and I got my ass beat for stirring the pot. That's pretty much the nuts and bolts of it.

No, hardly. However it can't be surprised if people get angry and shit happens because of their actions. That's my argument here. That's essentially the double-edged sword of freedom of speech. You have everyone's voices, not just the ones you like. There has to be a more constructive way than inciting riots via insulting cartoons. It's not permissable, that's the thing. What I'm saying here is that there's a reason why it's happening, not a reasonable reason. Also, Catholics weren't always so tolerant. The Crusades, the Inquisition, every witch hunt ever done. Religions mellow over time. Hardly. You just have to educate the populace against that form of extremism. Defeating intolerance takes education, not stupid cartoons. That cartoon was just a childish jab and every reprint of it only stoked the fire.

People in New Zealand are also a fair bit better off and better educated than your average Middle Easterner. Cool, waiting on that if you can find it. That's sure as hell what it looked like from across the pond and I can guarantee that the folks in the ME and in your own countries didn't think it was all that funny or noble either. That's all well and good, but you still antagonized them. Cartoon? Only in that they can do it because free speech exists, not because of how much they LOVE free speech. That's a crucial difference here. Then punish those that do those horrible acts and stop painting yourselves as innocent and like this happened in a void without a cause. Don't they have a freedom to speak?

Give me a link that proves me wrong and I'll rescind that point. Bullshit. I suppose the wearing of shirts and the rampant reprintings was this oh-so-noble freedom of speech thing and not some kind of simmering racial/religious tension bubbling to the surface. Come off it. Bullshit and that has nothing to do with this discussion, stay on task and stop trolling. This had about as much to do with free speech as American white power idiots stomping through the streets. They're doing it because they know it gets a rise out of people and pisses people off. They know they're protected by the free speech acts here, but that's not why they're doing it. The people in the EU protested peacefully. The people in the ME are the ones rioting.

Fixed. JESUS. H. FUCKING. CHRIST. RD. Seriously? I can't even fathom this right now. I've spelled it out in the clearest of simplistic language. The EU and everyone else that fanned the flames of this shit - the cartoon shit, not 9/11, not the beheadings, not anything else you KEEP BRINGING UP THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS - can't be angry at the ME for getting angry at them for printing those cartoons and basically pointing and laughing while they got aggitated. They only coughed forth a half-hearted apology when the int'l community chastised them for being the assholes they were in the first place.

They also apologized well after shit had already hit the fan and many other nations were reprinting them for the sole purpose of egging the ME on. After that point Denmark (and later the paper itself) apologizing was so many empty gestures all too late.

Okay. Smaller words. The Danish make bad picture. The Muslims mad at picture. The Danish laugh. The EU make more picture. The Muslims get more mad. The EU goes "uh oh!" The Muslims riot. RD says "lol stupid violent beasts lol"

He's repeating it and inserting something inside the argumentative structure that has nothing to do with the topic at hand and has no correlation in it whatsoever. Your inability to use logic astounds me yet again. No. It's not okay that they hate you all. I am explaining it. I am not justifying it. Should I use smaller words for you?

Logical fallacy. Appeal to emotion. Your attempted jab misses its mark. It's a shitty situation, now isn't it? I get the brunt of loathing of Americans if I travel to other nations strictly because well, I have an American accent. Now am I to blame for everything the US has done? No. Do I get the backlash of that strictly by being American? Yes. Now why is that? Because people want to have someone to question, someone to be angry at. By being a member of that nation you represent that nation to that person. Same reason middle-eastern folks were killed and terrorized following 9-11 here in the US of A. People want a scapegoat for their problems and if you happen to fit that description they're gonna lash out. For the record, by "you" I meant the EU and the US for reprinting those cartoons for no other reason than antagonization.

I answered every single one of your points that bore merit and was on topic. It's not my fault that you can't accept real answers or have the mental capacity to think critically, RD. As for the points about the cartoons you've just made again regardless of any logic thrown your way. You folks made the cartoons, you reprinted the cartoons to antagonize the Muslim world and now you're crying that they don't like you? You can't be that obtuse.

It's always been fucked up Good thing Dante wasn't a prophet and not just writing fiction. His writings have no bearing on Christian (or any other) doctrine and only use it as a prop for his story. Nostradamus was a vague quack, the Mayans simply stopped making their counter and if you honestly believe this shit you're a frickin' paranoid delusional idiot.